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Why did some Apollo missions carry a grenade launcher? (2019)

https://space.stackexchange.com/questions/37775
From November 2 to Nov 22 2018 the "DrSheldon" account asks exactly one question per day. https://space.stackexchange.com/users/drsheldon?tab=question...

Like this one, most of the questions are worded to enable an easy answer from a primary source.

In one instance the account answers its own question within the same minute: https://space.stackexchange.com/questions/31279/how-was-the-...

In another instance, the account replies to a comment with "Nonetheless, this would be the question to document any examples."

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Remember the guy that was hyper active wrt C# questions maybe 10 years ago?

People were amazed he would answer every C# and WPF questions minutes after they were posted.

I am convinced to this day he did the same thing.

Jon Skeet?

https://stackoverflow.com/users/jon-skeet

Yes! Was he really a super human or was he cheating?
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"The mortar package is activated by the "arm grenades" and "fire grenades" commands from Earth. The arm grenades command is applied to and gated through the command gating to the grenade arming circuitwhich charges the regulaz and sequential firing capacitors of the four grenades by applying a Z4-volt arming signal. A grenade arm pulse is also applied to the data handling function indicating receipt of the command."

Page 2-170 (179 of the PDF) of reference [1].

[0] https://ntrs.nasa.gov/search.jsp?R=19710014816 [1] https://ntrs.nasa.gov/api/citations/19710014816/downloads/19...

OCR is letting you down a little bit here. Neat that you found this though!
The soviets did regularly carry a gun. For survival purposes, as they were landing in Siberia which has wolves and pretty big bears.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TP-82

Salyut 3 also had a "self-defence gun" derived from an aircraft autocannon mounted to the station, enabling them to shoot at approaching enemy spacecraft

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salyut_3#On-board_gun

> The gun was fixed to the station in such a way that the only way to aim would have been to change the orientation of the entire station.

Are these stations easier to maneuver than I imagine? Sounds like someone was imagining age of sail type of combat.

I would guess having any sort of teeth would be meaningful to dissuade whatever type of manned craft might have been able to approach them at the time.
I'm guessing that pivoting the gun and firing would impart spin to the station, is the greater concern. And then pivoting the gun to stay on target would impart even more spin on subsequent shots.
What if you pivoted in the opposite direction?
In a modern system you'd just have the RCS thrusters fire based on the positioning of the gun, to counteract the force.

OTOH, if all piloting was manual back then, you'd have to have one guy aiming and another guy piloting to cancel out the angular momentum, so you might as well make the gun point away from the center of mass and let the pilot do the aiming.

tbf, docking attempts would not be that fast either
Russian paranoia at its finest
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I believe people involved in the program have since admitted that this was mostly to commit suicide in case they got stuck with no way home
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Feels a bit excessive. Wolves and brown bears generally avoid humans. Polar bears see us as food but brown bears do not.
26 fatalities due to bear attacks this year: https://tass.ru/obschestvo/28211259 https://eia.media/ru/article/society/6aa937759a7947f75201876... https://www.rbc.ru/society/15/09/2026/6aa937759a7947f7520187... This year bear encounters made headlines in Russia, but the number of fatalities isn't unusual. Records is 80/year in 1985, 1986 and 1996. Brown bears don't see us as food as long as there is some other food available. If food is scarce this year (some random dude on the internet says that there were an early thaw followed by freeze in 2024 that cause pine cone yield in 2026 to fail) they might attack. Either out of desperation or when encountered over a food source (i. e. garbage dump) and mistakes a human for a competitor.
You might be underestimating how remote some Soviet capsules landed. If they overshot their landing site they might be alone in the wilderness for days until rescue teams arrived

"Kosmonaut survives space mission, gets mauled by bear protecting her cub" is not a great headline. Bringing gun was relatively cheap insurance

Might need something to eat if you have to wait a few days for the rescue team to reach you.
Want, not need. A few days without food is quite survivable for a healthy human. And if you get selected for a space flight, you are healthy.
That works if you have absolute trust the rescue team will reach you on schedule. If you are unsure whether few days won't turn into few weeks, or whether there will be a rescue team at all, it's best to secure food and shelter while you still have the energy to do it.
Gun and bear solves that problem too.
"So the bad news is we're responsible for our next meal, but the good news is Ivan's space food farts will lead the meal right to us"
A gun helps with that, too.
> "Kosmonaut survives space mission, gets mauled by bear protecting her cub" is not a great headline.

Let's be honest here: the Soviets were never going to print that anyways.

It would certainly be printed for KPSS Politburo and someone would end up far away in Siberia.
Brown bears attack people in Russia quite frequently [1].

[1] https://meduza.io/en/feature/2026/09/11/russia-has-a-bear-pr...

I think it's important not to overgeneralize with something that might potentially kill you. The brown bears in Japan can be deadly. A 380 kg and 2.7-m-tall brown bear, which twice attacked the village of Tomamae, killing 7 people.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ussuri_brown_bear#Interactions...

There was a brown (North American Grizzly) predation attack on Nov 2. It’s rare, but not unheard of.

Wolf predation attacks on humans are rare, but far more common than brown bear attacks.

It's never excessive to carry a gun.
TSA says no.
Sky marshals have weapons and the TSA allows them.

Being an astronaut means you are trusted with extreme responsibilities and it also means extreme oversight. That's part of why the selection process is so thorough and stress response is so well evaluated before NASA will put a person in space.

Reading the parent's comment pedantically is useless and against this site's guidelines. Reading it more charitably + less literally makes more sense.

If you’re a pilot or cosmonaut in Siberia, you might not have come down as planned and might be there for a while. An injured, possibly bleeding human could be easy prey. They also have tigers…
What about lunar bears or Saturn bears? Those seem to be heavily armed.

https://youtu.be/pvjgIxuVdo4?is=7sF64RM0qTNqJguw

"Generally" implies there are exceptions. Would hate to be unprepared.
Of course there are exceptions but ticks kill more people than bears and wasps kill way more people.
Ticks and wasps are much, much more common than bears.
"generally". A hungry bear or wolf might be tempted to mess with an injured cosmonaut.
Landing in remote part of Siberia is not a typical situation and many typical assumptions do not apply.
There also might be some unfriendly people. Like escaped convicts living in the woods, in the middle of nowhere.
>> wolves and pretty big bears.

So the pistol was presumably for the astronaut to use on himself?

They most certainly have a shank stashed on ISS somewhere
The question is pretty unnecessary given that it references the "ALSEP Flight System Familiarization Manual" [1] which also goes into detail about the purpose of the grenade launcher.

1: https://ntrs.nasa.gov/search.jsp?R=19710014816

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Went down a rabbit hole to see if the Apollo "thumpers" were named so because of Dune. Apparently there were a few terrestrial thumpers in use by oil and gas surveyors prior to the book and missions... whomp whomp.

    nasa employee: oh hey u guys are back early
    astronaut: moon's haunted
    nasa employee: what?
    astronaut: *loading a pistol and getting back on the rocket-ship* moon's haunted.
https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/moons-haunted
Normally, I am glad that Hacker News policies meme references. There is already a reddit.

But I liked this comment be caused of its know your meme link. I learned something.

Well, I learned two things. One, I learned about the meme. Two, I learned not to trust Know Your Meme when it asks me to turn off my adblocker!

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I refrained from posting a humorous comment otherwise my reply would have been “becase you never know”
Doom 3 motto: "The UAC is making safer worlds through superior firepower."
Now I'm wondering how far a regular military grenade launcher could lauch grenades on the moon
About six times further with zero drag. So 3.6Km, or from Buckingham Palace to St Paul's Cathedral.
We could also say it's about a 15 minute run for a healthy person
Few people run at 13 km/h. Your qualification regarding health is doing a lot of work here.
> Few people run at 13 km/h.

on Earth or on the Moon tho?

Have you ever tried to run on the moon? Bloody difficult.
My (wildly uneducated) guess is that on the moon the real issue is not much acceleration but rather deceleration.
Acceleration and deceleration are both basically the same thing.

You'd have less grip under the soles of your shoes (less friction due to less normal force aka weight). You'd also probably have to fix your technique so you don't keep launching yourself 6 ft into the air on each stride.

Bloody difficult is probably an accurate description.

Since there is no atmosphere even a bit further.
That's already what zero drag meant
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And the follow-up question: Could it put one into a moon orbit if done right?
There are a few guns that exist that could achieve the necessary velocity (just shy of 4,000 mph) but they’re not handheld. But yes, it would be possible for the right gun to fire a bullet that went around the moon and hit you in the back of the head.
Lunar gravity field is very uneven - that one orbit might be enough for it slighly change where the bullet shows up again.
{"deleted":true,"id":50505620,"parent":50505569,"time":1794737319,"type":"comment"}
Like it was just a default for the game engine they were using.
Does anyone know why they had the grenade launcher? stackexchange decided a few false positives humans getting blocked was okay if they could mitigate the corporate bots and block most of them. The end result is that I can't read the page.
First thought: were these fragmentation grenades? Second though: nope: not useful for seismic research. Third though: on the moon, thrown fragmentation grenades wouldn't be safe for the thrower.
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{"deleted":true,"id":50505638,"parent":50505271,"time":1794737499,"type":"comment"}
From the comments:

> Due to an influx of joke comments, all joke comments on this post will be deleted

I think this is pretty much the story of late Stack Exchange.

to show the moon people who's boss
Because the howitzer wouldn't fit?
Michael Bay added it so that the official Apollo Mission action figures would sell better.[1]

[1] https://forum.dvdtalk.com/movie-talk/257651-armageddon-gatli...

To gun down the aliens. The answer is so obvious.
> They were part of an active seismic imaging experiment

That is what we call plausible deniability.

(Everyone complaining about this topic inviting jokes, and I’m the first to have posted one. Drama sells more than silly jokes these days.)

I'm sure it's the literal truth.

Never know when you need to seismically image some hostiles for scientific verification of threat elimination.

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> We and our (263!!!) partners perform the following based on your settings:

> Use precise geolocation data.

Why does this site need to share my precise geolocation with 263 partners? It's madness.

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> Due to an influx of joke comments, all joke comments on this post will be deleted.

And then they wonder why the whole group is dying

The alternative to me seems to be becoming like a lot of subs on Reddit. It's part of why I like HN so much too, where the signal to noise is so much better.
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Nicely editorialised there, skipping the second half:

> However, we would appreciate your sense of humor in chat if you want to drop by!However, we would appreciate your sense of humor in chat if you want to drop by!

On HN many purely jokey comments are often discouraged, being down-voted and getting replies along the lines of "this isn't Reddit". Is HN dying, by the same measure?

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I was going to say the same. They did follow up with “However, we would appreciate your sense of humor in chat if you want to drop by!” but the bolded comment above significantly outweighs this.

At least this earlier comment was deemed relevant and not too jokey:

> Even more fun, Apollo 14 didn't use their grenades, and they are still on the lunar surface.

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Maybe they are courting the AI agent demographic...
God forbid resource doesn’t turn into a group rewarding regurgitated jokes for internet points, it would insane. Every time I read some serious (ughhrr) book, I write trite irony on margins because I can’t process information like a normal human being anymore without turning everything into shit.
Curious, I checked that person's homepage. Looks about right for the 'no fun allowed' attitude:

https://called2voyage.github.io/