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It seems ridiculous that there would be consumer demand to unlock a car from a phone in the first place. The tech crowd will just complain that it should be easier to do a better job securing web services. But what is the point of all this infrastructure and complexity? So you can be just a little bit more lazy. This sort of tech is both a vulnerability and a waste of human resources and ingenuity.
I have no utility for remote unlocking. Remote locking (and the status in the app) saves my bacon because I often forget to lock the doors and in my neighborhood people will go through your car looking for change. It's not a big deal but I've had them get blood and stuff on the seats :/

Remote start is huge where I live. When it's -10C and there's a foot of snow you have to dig out in the morning, you can start your car from the app and then start shovelling. The alternative is a hokey pokey of shovelling yourself a path to the car, getting in, starting it, getting out, resuming shovelling. Not the end of the world but it's very nice. Even if there's no snow it's nice to get the cabin above freezing while you're eating breakfast without putting your boots on.

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I'm in Canada and was going to say this as well. Also, the nice thing about a phone vs. key fob for remote start is that with the phone you're less likely to accidentally remote start the car in your garage compared to a key fob. My parents always disabled remote start on their key fobs because they parked in a garage, but having the remote start option on your phone when parked outside at work, etc. is really convenient.
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shit remote start doesn't even have to require snow.

i'm in legit cold canada and being able to open my garage remotely and start my car means it's a lot easier to herd small kids into a warm, comfy carseat.

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i mean; i like the remote start angle, but that can be done with a key-press on a key. no damn app needed.

as for "I often forget to lock the doors"... why do you often forget to lock the doors?

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> It seems ridiculous that there would be consumer demand to unlock a car from a phone in the first place.

I really like using my phone as my key for my car. It's nice having less stuff in my pockets.

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Would I pay a monthly fee for this - no. Is it nice to make sure your car is locked if you forgot and to remote start your car in really hot / cold weather, yes.
Do you own a car? What’s more likely, misplacing your car keys, or misplacing your phone?

I’m not saying physical keys are not needed, but a nice digital solution is one of the things I really wish I had a Tesla. I wish the other car manufacturers would actually invest in good mobile experiences, they’re all such ass.

> What’s more likely, misplacing your car keys, or misplacing your phone?

good question. I don't know? There are three things I carry with me literally everywhere: phone, keys, and wallet. Any one of them missing in the morning means I have to hunt around the house to find them before I can leave for work. This would not change if I could unlock my car with my phone (I still need to be able to lock my front door and/or let myself in when I come home again, requiring keys)

There are also keyless solutions to your front door. The second time I had to call a locksmith in Shanghai I got pitched on a combination lock for my apartment door.

That's not to say they make sense. The total amount I spent on having the locksmith let me back in to my apartment that year was significantly less than the cost of putting in a combination lock.

In the western world, where labor is expensive and goods are cheap, you could put in 3 smart locks for the price of one call from a locksmith. I know, I’ve done both.
It’s interesting to see where redundancy reduces reliability.

Unlike say etcd where three improves reliability to the best of the three, three locks would decrease reliability to the worst among them.

A door lock with a PIN entry is incredibly cheap, and can be quite handy.

Then tying that in to be managed by a computer makes it even more handy. When I have family coming over, they can just use their own PINs to get in instead of having to manage yet another physical key. If its an even more one-off allowance to let someone in, I can easily just unlock from my phone. It also makes it easy to have doors automatically lock on a schedule.

I wouldn't want to have to go back to a world where I have to carry house keys with me every time I leave the house. It sounds way less convenient day to day, for the minor effort of swapping some AA's every six months or so for frequently used doors.

So many of my trips I leave with just my phone. Its my car keys. Its my transit pass. Its my money. Its my map. Normally I wouldn't want to take so much extra junk with me every time I'm just going to grab some groceries or getting lunch with a friend or going to the library.

Physically unlocking with NFC could be done without all the security holes.

Modern cars already make it much more difficult to lock your keys in the car than in ye olden days.

And the "did I remember to lock my car" remote-check functionality doesn't seem nearly worth the "now a hacker can remote-unlock my car" tradeoff. It's not like that "did I lock it" check helps prevent a "someone smashed the window and grabbed something out of it" scenario anyway.

NFC is vulnerable to relay attacks, so newer systems are including UWB (like AirTags) where the car can confirm the distance to the key fob
And the "did I remember to lock my car" remote-check functionality doesn't seem nearly worth the "now a hacker can remote-unlock my car" tradeoff.

It's completely unnecessary.

Modern cars automatically lock themselves when they sense there are no keys nearby, nobody in the seats, and the doors are closed for x minutes.

This is not true at all.
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It can be useful if you lost the keys for $REASON while hiking or doing any activity and you can phone somebody else who has access to the API and ask them to unlock and remote start the car. It doesn't happen that often, but it happens, and in the big scheme of things it's more likely to happen [1] that somebody stealing it via a vulnerability in the car maker web services.

Or at least as a car owner, this is my risk assessment exercise output.

[1] Yeah, I just pulled this off my ass, don't think there are trustworthy stats either in one direction or the other.

At least in the old days I could put my car keys into the wash and they'd still work fine. I could go to the local hardware store and get convenient duplicates for almost no money. Losing your car keys in the old days was a very easy situation to remedy.

Meanwhile, if I'm out in public and a bad update bricks my phone (or cell coverage is down?) I can no longer use my car. The idea that consumers would hope for more entrenchment into the phone ecosystem is absolutely baffling.

I think my car key would be the thing in my pockets that I'm the least likely to misplace. It's only ever in like one of three places.
This appears to be the simplest and safest solution.
"Just don't lose them" isn't really a solution. Humans make mistakes and occasionally leave them in pockets, drop inside couch cushions, etc. Especially if kids are involved.
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> Do you own a car? What’s more likely, misplacing your car keys, or misplacing your phone?

I do own a car. Keys in home are always in exact same spot. Phone can we literally anywhere, good I have smartwatch and I can trigger "locate my phone" that way.

I just don't get the idea of unlocking car though app via internet. Neither I get the "keyless entry" (meaning I do not even need to touch the key fob to unlock car) and "start button" (well if you place key in ignition switch then you will not lose it!)

The security drawback is not worth, fixing non-existing problem in the first place.

BYD has NFC unlock, can be paired to your phone or you R smart watch. Very good quality cars, much higher spec, better price etc than a tesla
long term reliability outside of warranty is the question for many of us, and tesla simply has data for much longer
I’m unlikely to lose either. The keys have an AirTag. The phone show up on find my.
My wife and I were in her Hyundai Ioniq 6 a couple of months ago, and we both got out of the car. One of our dogs was in the back seat and jumped into the front.

Unfortunately Hyundai decided, in their wisdom, to put the door lock button (to lock all doors) in the console between the front seats. Exactly where Sally stepped when she came from the back.

Both my wife's keys and phone were still in the car.

30 minutes later, a local mechanic showed up. He gently pried the front door open with something like a whoopie cushion, and was able to poke the door lock button and open everything. It took him about 5 minutes.

Hyundai Canada can, of course, open the doors remotely, but when I called them they refused to and only offered to call CAA (the Canadian version of AAA, and the people Hyundia sub-contracts their roadside assistance to). I guess that makes sense considering the liability of remotely unlocking for someone whose identity they can't verify.

Wife has an Ioniq 9, and she shared her digital key with me via Google Wallet. Look into that as an option for next time, I'd assume Apple has a similar implementation.

That said, the digital key is much more finicky/failure prone than my Tesla's implementation, and has a backup keycard I keep in my wallet (but have never had to use). Generally, rebooting the phone fixes it for some amount of time, until it stops working again with no indication until I try to unlock her car.

Wow that's an interesting edge case.
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"What’s more likely, misplacing your car keys, or misplacing your phone?"

…And what about the many other things one misplaces about the house? For instance, Wireless mice, TV and various other remote controls, etc.

I just cannot understand why the tech crowd hasn't developed a much-needed Missing Objects protocol.

Think of this. When you lose an object you immediately go to a big button that's hidden and securely bolted down (so you can never lose it) then press it. Like your fob key and car, it activates all these easily-lost items and they start beeping madly so you can find them. Lose the mouse in the couch somewhere and the 'couch' starts beeping. Voilà, one found mouse.

It's crazy that a simple concept like this doesn't exist in practice.

My Onn Google TV box (that cost like $39.99) has a beeping find my remote feature which links to Google Home so I can just say "hey Google find my keys".
Owned a car for 30 years. Have misplaced keys but always had a spare. What's more likely to be stolen, your car keys or your phone? Your question and my question are both facile.
unlock with nfc then ? He is pointing out the rediculousness of the design choice of using the web to unlock the car which is at arms reach
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Most modern cars automatically lock when you walk like 3 metres away from the car with keyfob. At least I assume it's most cars.
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> What’s more likely, misplacing your car keys, or misplacing your phone?

Misplacing the phone actually. Car keys are either in someone's pocket/bag (then you talk to whoever used the car last) or in a set place in my home. The phone might be wherever I used it last.

Google's Find Device and Apple's similar service mean that you can always determine where your cellphone is. If someone sets a bag on top of my keys, or something similar, the only way to find them is to physically search until I luck out and find them.

So, while I misplace my phone more often, I also find it with less difficulty.

> Google's Find Device and Apple's similar service mean that you can always determine where your cellphone is.

Hmm? As in which room? What if it accidentally slid under the bed sheets, or someone put a piece of clothing over it, and it's on silent? True stories.

>Google's Find Device and Apple's similar service mean that you can always determine where your cellphone is.

And so can the police, and so can DHS, and so can ICE, and so can Google ad services, and so can the last 50 highest bidders, and so can ...

Running out of battery on my phone.
not a problem, just plug in to the usb port in your kia's headlight.
What’s more likely, misplacing your car keys, or misplacing your phone?

Are there cars that let you drive them without the key?

My car allows me to unlock it with a phone from the other side of the planet. But to actually drive, it requires the key to be inside.

Yes, lots of cars (particularly relatively new ones) allow Phone-As-Key, either via UWB (so the phone can stay in your pocket) or NFC (so the phone has to be placed on an NFC reader).
I agree. I consider phone-as-key to be a key. My car had this feature.

But the previous comment seemed to be about driving a car with no key.

It's nice to get an alert on my phone saying the car door was left unlocked. Except I leave it unlocked in my garage all the time. Wish it had a geofence for that alert.
Many car brands do this.

Mazda charges $10-15/month for their remote unlock/start app.

https://mymazda.com/MyMazda/mazdaConnectedServices.action

I’ve used it more often than I’d expect. Mostly just in situations where I take my key out of my pocket then forget it when I run back to the car. Beach, gym, skiing, etc. Or, if my wife drove us and I’m the one running out to grab something.

Clearly, not a critical use case but it is handy.

Remote locking and remote start are much more useful.

I still dont understand whats wrong with putting a key in a door to unlock it.
I had a 2007 Chevy HHR. It had remote start/unlock. When I lived in Denver, I used the remote start during winter to warm the car up before getting in.

Also, there was something sticky with the door lock. If I used the key instead of the fob, sometimes the anti-theft system would not disarm and the only way I found to disarm it was to use the fob to turn that alarm off. Grrrr. Fobs lasted about 3 years and cost $100 to replace/reprogram.

My current car (a Miata) has a key only to unlock the door in the event of a dead battery. It has a pushbutton instead of the traditional ignition key, so the key is pretty useless outside of a dead battery.

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The problem is no one can control this remotely. Some people would prefer your access to the vehicle be conditional.
Most cars still have a physical lock hidden under the handle for emergencies, like opening the car when the battery is dead.

All remote unlock is doing is adding an unnecessary insecure remote layer on top of that for convenience.

I think weex means loan vendors and carmakers would like your access to your car to be controlled by them not the driver -- so they can lock you out if you don't pay them every month.
Which is what I was replying to. They cant lock you out because your car has a physical lock, its just that they hide it these day.
It seems ridiculous to think that because we cannot create a technical facility to securely open the car, the consumers are called ridiculous. It is hackernews but this looks to me like enterprise compliance news.
Enterprise compliance confuses people. The problems are all simple in principle, but there are so many of them and they cost so much that nearly no enterprise seems to be able to manage the basics. It'd say the more HN comment here is one who misunderstands that complex problems cannot be solved by technical solutions alone.
At that point: why do you even need to leave the house? You can use VR goggles for everything.
There are use cases: you want to give a family member some item. They're at work and in a meeting. Get them to remote unlock their car and place the item in it. But really I think it's an extension of remote start which is very necessary in cold climates.
That's a pretty big stretch to me, especially since key fobs can usually unlock a door from across the parking lot without even leaving the building.

I live in a cold climate. Remote start isn't even necessary much less very necessary. I start the car, then clean off all the snow and leave. Running the engine isn't going to remove a foot of snow off the windshield and it definitely won't off the roof or hood.

Regardless remote starters do not need the web or a phone, they existed in the 1990s.

> remote start which is very necessary in cold climates

Not just necessary, but very necessary? I understand it's convenient, but I think you've overstated it a bit. You can always start your car and then go back in the house for a few.

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We used (until Subaru said 'fuck you, pay us') the mobile access so that I could unlock my family member's vehicle when I rode along with them or remote start it ahead of them while we're out and about. It's nice to be able to get back into the car and sit and wait without having to grab the key out of their purse.

They hook a lot of people now with the first couple years free, then spin around and go for a $150+ a year whammy. We gave up.

its just more convenient, say im outside my home, theres something i need in the car, i can either go back inside to get the keys, or just open the car from the app (not to mention turning on heater / AC remotely)

you can argue that the security tradeoff is not worth it, but claiming the demand is not there is just silly

I mean that is not what they argued, what they argued was

> So you can be just a little bit more lazy

Which:

> i can either go back inside to get the keys, or just open the car from the app

I think qualifies, personally. Your house might be way bigger than mine though

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The desire to connect every single thing to the Internet is a complete waste of resources in exchange for profound security issues and mild reliability risks. Use a key. It's the right tool for the job.

I'm not convinced it is even lazy to use a phone to unlock a car.

Not sure the reliability risks are that mild in this case. Phones can run out of battery. I would not want to be locked out of my car in the winter because I ran out of batteries and looking at my car which both can charge it and save me from the elements.