Hacker News new | past | comments | ask | show | jobs | submit
It’s mind boggling that in the UK there’s a law that says:

> “A plank of wood must not be carried along a pavement. It can only be moved if it is being unloaded from a vehicle or taken into a building.”

But big tech cannot be regulated at all. We used to regulate any minor thing that was annoying enough, but a whole industry spying and prying on the whole population is fine.

> But big tech cannot be regulated at all.

It cannot be regulated because we let dollar/capital rise above political authority.

Journalism also fails in uncovering it.

Public awareness is step one.

I don't know that this is a discovery issue. It has been widely publicised that all your devices are spying on you for at least a decade now - hard proof was previously somewhat hard to come by, but a suitable regulatory agency could have gone digging at any point.
loading story #50232414
Journalism is almost dead. And if where it’s not it’s more of a summary of what happened rather than deep investigations. But only a small percentage of the population care about deep investigations anyway.
The main issue is that the attention economy and social pressure are so hard to break. People keep using WhatsApp because it is convenient and everyone is there. There are no other reasons.
The major other reason is that it is free, and most people are money-constrained.

Personalized advertising is a progressive tax. Because the rich spend more and the poor spend less, Meta et al makes more money from the rich than it makes from the poor, while offering the same service to everybody else. As a result, we get the educated rich upper-middle class complaining about advertising, while everybody else is happy about not having to pay their long-distance charges any more.

Tons of media outlets have covered privacy failures in the past. The public doesn't care, and so the journalists stop caring as well.
loading story #50232111
loading story #50232051
[flagged]
Nothing and nobody rises above the authority in a dictatorship, that's kind of the point.

The CEO of Alibaba was kidnapped after he publicly criticized the government.

It's generally no surprise that there are not that many critical voices in a dictatorship.

loading story #50231758
loading story #50231977
Despite really kicking our asses on their approach to an AI ecosystem, China has problems of its own. Too bad we can't just copy the parts that work but those are the rules I guess.

https://www.wsj.com/world/china-economy-gen-z-f9058941

There are a lot of things you don't have to worry about in China because someone else makes the decision for you. Sure you want to strive for that?

I feel sorry that democracies are failing their citizenry like this.

loading story #50231208
loading story #50231117
> “A plank of wood must not be carried along a pavement. It can only be moved if it is being unloaded from a vehicle or taken into a building.”

Is that a good law or is it a barnacle? Is it enforced in the UK?

It isn't entirely true, it has to be "to the obstruction, annoyance, or danger of the residents or passengers" for it to be illegal https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/Vict/10-11/89

Although it does appear to be true in London https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/Vict/2-3/47/section/54

Actually it is. Around 2005 I was stopped by police at 2am in Hackney and told in no uncertain terms that it was illegal for me to be walking with a 2x4 in my hand
Next time bring a bicycle.
That was twenty years ago my dude
loading story #50232913
loading story #50232076
Your cavalier anti plank control attitude is what’s wrong with Americans
This is why Hollywood cornered the market in slapstick comedy in the silent movie era
Big tech isn't being regulated? There's increasingly privacy related laws, both in the US and abroad, that directly affect them. How many times a year do we read about Big Tech being issued 9-10 figure fines? One could state that they're not regulated enough, but to say they're unregulated is just false.

> We used to regulate any minor thing that was annoying enough

Your example is a good reason why that approach was foolish.

Regulation is only as good as enforcement of it is. And it seems 9-10 figure fines are still in the realm of 'we'll deal with the fallout later'.

So no, it's not literally unregulated, but if it was regulated effectively Samsung would be scared shitless to pull stuff like this. They clearly aren't.

> Big Tech being issued 9-10 figure fines?

Are these fines ever paid? Or is it appeal upon appeal and 10 years later they pay a tenth of the fine?

Is that a thing? I ask because I and my best friend have vivid memories of my step dad, who used to be a postman, cycling home from town with 4 - 5m timbers under one arm. This would have been late 80s/early 90s. He’d call out and wave to people he knew with his “free” hand as he passed as well.

If even moving a plank of wood is illegal I can’t imagine how he got away with that, unmolested by plod, for so many years.

In the UK, 'pavement' doesn't refer to any paved road, but to what Americans call a 'sidewalk'.

Bicycles are ridden on the road, not the pavement.

Sometimes people ride bicycles on the pavement, but doing so with a long piece of wood would be very dangerous indeed.

Maybe a bicycle counts as a vehicle.
Spoiler: it isn't. This is made up.
It's heavily paraphrased, but close enough I'd say.

> Every person who shall roll or carry any cask, tub, hoop, or wheel, or any ladder, plank, pole, showboard, or placard, upon any footway, except for the purpose of loading or unloading any cart or carriage, or of crossing the footway:

- https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/Vict/2-3/47/section/54

The UK has dozens of these ancient laws that were never removed from the books. It doesn't mean they are enforced.
loading story #50235590
People carrying planks of wood on the sidewalk is obvious to everyone and clear inconvenience. What tech companies do in software is not, and has no physical immediately tangible effect on the world. These things should be regulated, but they're so opaque and disconnected from the eventual negative externalities that it's hard to get legislators to see it.
The horizon problem.

If a human cannot immediately see a negative outcome on their visual or mental horizon based on the knowledge they have at that moment most of their insights or feelings about what problems will occur will be incorrect.

Talking about AI and data is a good example of this. A bit of data here and there seems useless, but the moment you get enough the pattern of your life can emerge from it and suddenly you can be tracked and manipulated with an amazingly high probability. And it's not a one time thing either. Anything mispredicted gets put back in your profile as another data point.

If your building or other construction is unsafe for the public, the local authority has the right to make it safe, if necessary by demolishing it; if you are insufficiently responsive to a notice that you must make it safe. Maybe tech companies need that kind of incentive before they will care enough not to subject their customers to this kind of abuse.
From the government perspective this is not abuse, in fact many governments make it mandatory by law
In the interests of accuracy, the law (the Metropolitan Police Act 1839) actually states

""" 54 Prohibition of nuisances by persons in the thoroughfares.

Every person shall be liable to a penalty not more than level 2 on the standard scale, who, within the limits of the metropolitan police district, shall in any thoroughfare or public place, commit any of the following offences; (that is to say,)

...

8. Every person who shall roll or carry any cask, tub, hoop, or wheel, or any ladder, plank, pole, showboard, or placard, upon any footway, except for the purpose of loading or unloading any cart or carriage, or of crossing the footway:

... """ https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/Vict/2-3/47/section/54

The plank of wood is one element in a much broader statute, rather than an example of hyper-specificity. And it might have been strictly applied at the time, but that doesn't mean you're definitely going to get into trouble nowadays.

In a similar vein, the UK *does* have laws that affect big tech. UK GDPR places requirements on processing of personal data:

""" Personal data shall be:

(a)processed lawfully, fairly and in a transparent manner in relation to the data subject (‘lawfulness, fairness and transparency’); """ https://www.legislation.gov.uk/eur/2016/679/article/5

Whether that's properly enforced is (as with the plank) a completely different matter.

In the UK, at least, we don't need new regulations, we need to more effectively apply the regulations we already have in place. But there is also a balance to be made between enforcement through fines and enforcement through changing behaviour: it's much better to work with companies to bring them into compliance than it is to just fine them and without actually changing anything.

Just to emphasise:

> within the limits of the metropolitan police district

It's a local London law. In England such laws are passed by parliament because there is no other mechanism, but in countries with devolved lawmaking states and cities have much crazier laws.

There is a counter incentive, the money the companies pay the politicians.
> There is a counter incentive, the money the companies pay the politicians.

That's disingenuous. The public has been told a beautiful fairy tale about technology for years. There are huge outcries every single time any politician tries to regulate big tech.

Now I know that this isn't because the public is somehow ideologically opposed to regulation. We have been paid off, just as much as the politicians have. When they increase the prices of televisions and say it's because they this new regulation, we show up to support them.

> The public has been told a beautiful fairy tale about technology

He typed, from a tiny device in his hand, from a bed in an air-conditioned apartment millions of miles away. Or perhaps from a jet sailing through the sky, via a satellite in space

loading story #50233710
loading story #50234030
It is not plausible that a company would raise prices as some kind of revenge or play to overturn a regulation. That is not how prices are set in a free market because any company that did that would immediately lose to their competition. Unless we have a cartel of television manufacturers, which would be news to me.
Any rule is as good as its enforcement.

The plank rule just exists, not enforced, so nobody observes it.

Same will happen with the high-tech regulation. In fact, it is already happening left and right where it does exist.

We see see two failure modes in the US, and I assume they are universal. On the small scale, enforcers don't enforce, because of resource constraints, and higher up the food chain, the enforcers are the ones breaking the law.
> But big tech cannot be regulated at all.

As far as the censorship goes UK is trying hard. So follow the money?

Devils advocate ish reason:

People understand what a plank of wood is and how it works.

People, including the vast majority of politicians, don’t understand our technology at all. It’s magic. Why does a light come on when they flip the switch? Magic. Computers are deep black magic.

How can they write effective regulation? Or tell the difference between proposals that are good or bad written by others?

If politicians regulated big tech more we’d probably end up with a ton of regulatory capture that legislated monopolies for big tech and shut out open source and startups, because who has the money to influence the ignorant lawmakers at scale?

We are now in a world where small groups of high priests understand certain things, and few others. We’ve been there for a while but it’s gotten far more opaque in the last 25 years or so.

Even something like a nuclear reactor or an aircraft is much easier to explain. The last episode of the Chernobyl series did a great job explaining what was wrong with that reactor design to a layperson. But computing… and networks… people who do understand it have forgotten just how ludicrously arcane and inscrutable it is to most.

A big difference too is that by the Church-Turing theorem there is (as a side effect of it) a provably infinite number of ways to perform any computation. Which means you can’t just legislate “don’t do that.” Physical machines are not like that.

We used to solve this problem by embedding experts in government bodies.

We can't do that any more; the people who support tech regulation are so cartoonishly anti-corporate that any suggestion of embedding somebody who understands tech will be met with accusations of lobbying and a careful review of that person's employment history.

It's obvious to pretty much everybody that regulating banks, railroads or phone companies requires people who have previously worked for banks, railroads and phone companies, and have a good understanding of how such organizations work on the inside. We, generally, don't do that with tech.

The point of having advisors was supposed to be that they would help the elected person make up for lack of knowledge, but it doesn't seem like that pans out in reality. Either the advisors are just as lost, or they are largely ignored.
The need for good advisors is a major point in Sun-Tzu's Art of War.

Surround yourself with good advisors and the surrounding kingdoms will notice and be less inclined to attack. If you have bad advisors, your enemies will perceive that as their opening

Or they are corrupt. Corrupt advisors are as old as civilization.
loading story #50233864
> > “A plank of wood must not be carried along a pavement. It can only be moved if it is being unloaded from a vehicle or taken into a building.”

This isn't a real thing. It's like the thing about it being legal to shoot Welshmen if they're in York after nightfall, and other such shit.

The problem with regulating big tech is the unplacable internet. Who can regulate the internet? Who gets to make rules for the global network?

Politicians are keenly aware that regulation has to be administered, and administration costs money. The internet subsists on low overhead, and per jurisdiction administration would significantly change almost everything about the current internet. The public wont allow that.

If the public actually starts demanding regulation, we will see a fracturing of the internet into national networks. It will become impossible (or at least uneconomical) to run reddit, youtube, or facebook as global networks. They might continue to exists, but they will be sectioned off.

But it’s absolutely placeable. The internet is run by real computers that exist in the physical world.
In that scheme, would regulation be based on where the servers are located? What's to stop me from routing American traffic to Armenia, where the laws don't exist? What's to stop me routing it to Russia, where the general legal principle is that illegality won't be pursued if it's no against Russian citizens?
loading story #50236475