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> If this is what America wants, then it is what America deserves.

It's not really "what America wants". You are drastically overestimating how democratic the US system is if you think the fact that a very narrow majority picked one of the preselected candidates means that candidate has any kind of broad popular mandate.

It's probably what a double-digit percentage of Americans want, but certainly not the majority, and only barely the majority preferred it over the other extremely unpopular candidate.

How is ~8% (eyeballing) of the popular vote a narrow majority in politics? It's a pretty substantial majority. Apathetic non-voters don't really count because they don't care.
> Apathetic non-voters

An important thing to keep in mind in American politics is the massive amount of voter suppression. Not voting doesn't inherently mean you were lazy or apathetic. It may well mean your vote was suppressed by any of a hundred tactics. Closing polling places in blue regions, requiring in-person voting on-the-day, restricting early voting, restricting vote by mail, failing at sending people ballots, spuriously dropping voter registrations...

> requiring in-person voting on-the-day

Exactly three states don't offer early voting to all voters [1] and none of those three were battleground states.

[1] https://www.cbsnews.com/news/map-early-voting-mail-ballot-st...

It would be a tall feat to suppress close to a third the population from voting!
All that is true, and to a great degree the reason why the concept of "swing states" (or rather the "non-swing states") even exists.

It does not explain however why almost all the swing states aligned with Trump this time.

20M is too much of a number to be attributed to voter suppression alone. I think the main issue here is still apathetic non-voters.
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Is apathy the only explanation for the non-voting?
I'm seeing 3.5% -- where are you getting 8%.
Trump is at 71.8 million votes compared to Harris at 66.9 million votes according to AP. That's somewhere between 7% and 8%
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What you forget, or may not appreciate, is that (for example) Blue voters in states that are absolutely going Red may stay home, because their vote won't really count.

I've voted Dem all my life (since 1988), and while my preferred candidate has won several of those races, my actual VOTE never helped them because I voted in Mississippi (88), Alabama (92), and Texas (96 & thereafter) -- all of which have been GOP strongholds for a long, long time. (Texas, for example, hasn't gone for the Democrats since Carter v. Ford in 1976.)

It's easy to imagine that a feeling of despair about the efficacy of one's vote would drive someone to stay home.

For some reason I’ve not heard this argument 8 years back when Clinton lost. At that time the fact that she won popular vote was used to critique the electoral college. Maybe at that time republicans stayed at home in the blue states?
As a foreigner it seems like the electoral college is obviously stupid. No matter who wins why. It is pure conservatism to keep it like doing something because the Bible says so. Given that it mostly helps one party it will never be changed but it cannot be argued from first principles in the 21st century.
Honest question, Is it not somewhat similar in effect to a parliamentary system? My understanding, is generally a parliament is divided into districts, then after parliament is elected, the government is formed and the prime minister is selected by a majority of the members of parliament?

Not saying it's great, but maybe it's not too dissimilar from some other systems?

It can totally be argued from first principles. If you acknowledge that USA is a union and not a single state then it makes sense that the votes do not necessarily reflect the population distribution and there is some form of rebalancing. Then its a wuestion how much and whether the current balance is the right one.
The US is a federal system. It serves the interests of the states, not the People.

The electoral college - and the Senate - were intended to explicitly put power in the hands of the states, as equals, without regard for population. The House of Representatives was intended to be the counterbalancing voice of the People.

I can totally understand disagreeing with the concept, but to say it's stupid tells me you likely don't understand its purpose and how it fits into the overall system.

This is circular reasoning -- "the system is the way it is because that's how it was set up".

US States are not meaningful cultural units -- people in Philadelphia are much more like people in NYC than either are like those of the rural hinterlands of their respective states.

> The US is a federal system. It serves the interests of the states, not the People.

Indeed, and that's a bad system that makes no sense in 2024. Disliking it doesn't mean one doesn't understand how it came to be this way.

(Tangentially related aside: plenty of federal systems have much fairer systems for election to federal office than the US does. For example Germany.)

> This is circular reasoning -- "the system is the way it is because that's how it was set up".

Maybe it's my lack of sleep from staying until until 7am watching election news, but I honestly can't see how this is applicable. My comment was explicit about why the system was set up that way.

> US States are not meaningful cultural units

I very strongly disagree.

The next time you meet a Texan, ask them if they think they are "meaningfully" culturally distinct from Californians.

> The next time you meet a Texan, ask them if they think they are "meaningfully" culturally distinct from Californians.

Having lived in both places I can confidently say "not as much as either party would like to think". There are far, far, far more similarities than differences, especially because the population of either place doesn't tend to interact with their natural environment. Both simply have strong sense of nationalistic pride (however dumb this is).

> The next time you meet a Texan

Texas is a cherry-picked example of one of the states with the strongest specific identities. Most states are not like this.

Ask someone from Phoenix to explain how they are meaningfully different from someone from Denver and they will struggle.

The same could be said for Germany and Austria. States - as in "nations", not necessarily US states - can have shared culture and history.

Texas is the one that comes to mind as the strongest, but it's far from unique in that regard. Louisiana pops to mind next. Other examples of states with very strong cultural identities off the top of my head: Oregon, Utah, Tennessee, Florida, West Virginia, Michigan, Maine, Vermont, New York, Illinois... you get the idea.

I'd say about the half the states have a strong, unique identity. The remainder are similar to their neighbors but the farther you travel the more apparent the differences.

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I mean, I'll take a stab at it... the electoral college can be argued from first principles if you consider that the U.S. was supposed to be a federal union of sovereign states. There are certainly reasonable arguments for federalism and devolution of power.

The U.N. doesn't directly elect the general secretary.

The US is not, in practice, a union of sovereign states today, regardless of whether it was in 1789.
Is that an argument against the electoral college, or an argument for re-devolution of power? Because the latter is probably easier to do than getting rid of the electoral college, given the requirements to pass a constitutional amendment.
It exists to give outsized influence to small, rural (and, at the time, slave-holding) states -- which is also true of the Senate.
It's not a partisan argument. It's a fact of the mechanics of US Presidential elections.

If DJT ends up with a final popular vote advantage, though, it'll be the first time that a Republican has taken the Oval Office AND the popular vote since 1988.

How does the exact same argument do not apply to Republican voters in e.g California, New York or Oregon?
> Blue voters in states that are absolutely going Red may stay home

Blue voters in states that are absolutely going Blue may also stay home.

Why doesn't this apply both ways? Red voters in Blue states are just as likely to stay home because they think their votes won't count. And ditto the other point, Red voters in Red states may not feel like it's worth the bother to vote when they already know their state is going their way.
> It's easy to imagine that a feeling of despair about the efficacy of one's vote would drive someone to stay home.

That's true, but I don't think Democrats had a feeling of despair before the results came in. It seems like most Democrats are shocked that the election turned out this way.

If it helps, the right seems shocked it turned out this way, too.

Personally, I realized last week that I had no reliable way to know what to expect. There was ample data to support predicting any outcome.

If true, their media diet betrayed them. This outcome was obvious.
That seems like an insane assumption to me. Maybe there’s nobody worth voting for. If you don’t interpret a non-vote that way what’s the point of democracy?
I wish people would probe this question a little more. It certainly seems to me, what with the party-based system (and all their rules, requirements, and other methods of disincentivizing non Republican/Democrat participation), the point is not democracy at all, but political power brokering. That's not a system I'm comfortable interacting with.
Because there was never a real choice. Put it this way: someone could give a choice between drinking arsenic and fertilizer. One of those options will win, probably by a wide margin. It doesn't mean it reflects the will of the people because, hey, people would rather drink neither.

2016 had the DNC force a terrible candidate down our throats because the establishment was more concerned in measuring offices in the West Wing that listening to voters. It was a spectacular failure and we got Trump as a result. The DNC did their utmost to ensure people didn't get a voice in the process.

2020 was unique for many reasons. Many, including me, said choosing Biden was a bad idea. He was even then so old that the DNC was giving up the incumbents advantage in 2024, partly driven by Biden alluding to him not wanting to run for re-election. Did the people choose Biden? Well, not really. Jim Clyburn did [1].

People didn't choose Biden's "bearhug strategy". Biden, against all the cries not to, decided to seek re-election despite showing signs of cognitive decline a year ago. So there was no real primary process, no chance for the people to have a voice. The people also didn't choose for the DNC to burn to the ground young voter support (eg college protest response), the Arab-American vote (ie Gaza) or the Latino vote (with an immigration policy to the right of Ronald Reagan).

If the DNC had listened to the voters, Bernie Sanders would've handily beat Donald Trump in 2016 and we wouldn't be here.

[1]: https://archive.is/qSpNF

Bernie Sanders is your answer to Trump? Thankfully Trump can’t run again because that kind of thinking would have him winning elections into 2030.
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> only barely the majority preferred it

If true, this is not really a democratic country and should stop lecturing the world about democracy.

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It's because the primary system favors candidates who pander to narrow slices of the voting public.

Primaries have low turnout: Most elections are between two unpopular candidates who are chosen from vocal political minorities.

According to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2024_Republican_Party_presiden..., there were ~22 million voters in the Republican presidential primary, ~17 million voted for Trump. (~17 million voted in the democratic primary)

According to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2024_United_States_presidentia..., there were ~139 million voters in the main election.

So roughly 12% of voters got Trump to be the candidate. What if the other 72% showed up to the primaries and got different candidates?

Why do people keep stating that the choices are somehow not Democratic. Who else beats Trump? Seriously. It's not like there were some great candidates out there that just didn't have the party machinery behind them. These were honestly, IMO, two of the best that the country had to offer. Sure, I personally would've loved to have Pete Buttigieg as President, but I also realize that he loses to Trump 10 out of 10 times.

The fact is America would be happy with no one. But we got who America wanted -- even if its not who I wanted.

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I think you're double speaking here, the majority of the population who were eligible to vote, voted for Donald Trump in 2024.
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Trump has had a ~43% approval rating from basically the beginning except for a very brief dip around Jan 6.
Nobody picked Harris. She hasn't won a primary even once. Trump won it three times. The primary is the only step in the whole election process where the actual "democracy" can even remotely happen.
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That's too easy a get-out.

A lot of people voted for the rapist felon, as I write he is in fact winning the popular vote.

This is on the people and the society they live in. It's not "the messaging" from either party - it's simply that Trump appeals to a lot of Americans, as unpalatable as that is.

You don't think "the messaging" of "rapist felon" has anything to do with it?
I'm not trying to persuade you either way. Those are just the facts as assessed by the courts. If you don't like the facts, again, I don't care.

IMHO people vote for Trump because he normalises the hate and jealousy that they feel themselves for their situation and their powerlessness to change it. How he projects his own narcissism makes him look like a kindred spirit to them, and the fact that over 50% of the voting American public can relate to this is a stunning indictment of US society.

Then why isn't he in jail? Why wasn't he been impeached? Why can't they find something that sticks for the most smeared political figure in modern history? If we are bringing up his questionable legal past, then it's fair to bring up the legal past of the opposing side. The truth is the political class has done so much damage and far worse things than Trump.

That's a whole lot of mind reading and guessing of what 50% of the country thinks, it's not simple, no one is that one dimensional and different groups have different reasons

Gen Z, millenials, boomers, gen x all have slightly different social and economic goals

The fundamental christians are not the same as the homeless bernie bros and classic liberals

> why isn't he in jail

In 2020, a Pennsylvania white man illegally voted via mail-in ballot on behalf of two deceased parents.

Also in 2020, a black woman in Memphis voted while ineligible due to a felony conviction without being informed she wasn't allowed, and was convicted and sentenced to 6 years in jail.

As for how this applies to why Trump is not in jail for his convictions, I will leave that as an exercise for the reader.

You're in denial if you think both sides aren't racist, it comes out in different ways but its there

Someone failed that women long before she voted if she didn't know a convicted felon can't vote, at least in my state they ask when you register

He was impeached... twice! (Only president ever)
No

For the first impeachment it was only recommended and then acquitted.

For the second the articles of impeachment were drawn but also acquitted.

> felon

Just a note: a lot of people, including moderates, perceive his felony conviction (in the Stormy Daniels case) as a politically motivated prosecution engineered by his political opponents. Pushing that prosecution as far as they did almost certainly contributed to Trump's victory rather than having its intended effect of making him untouchable.

I don’t think the conviction’s effect on his support was lost on anyone who was paying attention. He was convicted for breaking the law by a jury of his peers. Should the case have been brought to trial? That’s debatable, but he clearly is a felon. Not the first felon to run a country, as it happens.

Btw I would argue the assassination attempt did far more for him than the felony conviction.

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Rap music taught me that being a felon is cool.
Crazy enough I've heard from some younger males that him being a felon was good because in order for him to make his life better (being a felon) he would have to make their life better (whether they were felons or felon associated) -- or so their thinking went.
Trump wasn't convicted of rape. He lost a civil defamation lawsuit brought by an ex-girlfriend turned political activist.
Trump appeals to "a lot of Americans", sure. That doesn't mean he appeals to all or even most of us.

An election result wandering from 46.8% to 51% does not indicate a huge shift in American culture in general. It just looks that way because of the flaws in our political system.

Trump is America incarnate and that's something that's only just starting to be properly discussed. We can't reckon with him or avoid him because he is this country, in spirit and in soul. A morally bankrupt opportunist that uses and discards everything it can, and cloaks it all in slick business attire and insipid, empty words. Loud, stupid, ignorant, bigoted, and proud of all four because it has the money enough to make sure it never needs to explain itself to anyone. Believes in absolutely nothing beyond what can benefit him in that moment, and if it changes, he'll turn on a dime. If the phrase "fuck you got mine" was turned into a real boy by some sick wizard, it would be Trump.

Until we reckon with our true national spirit, which is Donald J. Trump, we cannot kill the movement behind him because that IS America, in a very literal sense.

And people who may not be that, and yet voted for him are not very bright. There are a lot of them, women included.
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> he is this country, in spirit and in soul.

He is half of this country. That is a very important distinction.

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Exactly. Nobody waved a magic wand and conjured up Trump, causing people to become cruel and selfish. They are already cruel and selfish, and they simply found their man. It's not like people are just going to just stop being this way once he's gone.
I dont know if I have ever read something as poetic and true to the point at the same time. Thanks for this priceless realisation.
>we cannot kill the movement behind him

You've tried twice. America has rejected your ideology, your violence, and your warmongering.

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