Hacker News new | past | comments | ask | show | jobs | submit

US FAA says it will phase out floppy disks from air traffic control by 2028

https://www.reuters.com/world/us/us-faa-says-it-will-phase-out-floppy-disks-air-traffic-control-by-2028-2026-11-05/
I worked on modernization in the FAA specifically around digitizing NOTAMs.

I would urge you not to consider this modernization from the perspective you may be familiar, as someone who may work on the bleeding edge and sometimes sees a lack of caution from engineers pushing for change.

The FAAs safety risk management is built around a rigorous process, but that is also a massive slowdown to reasonable progress.

One of the eng I worked with was 80+ years old and just didnt want to retire. He did not understand modern systems at all and the risks we were looking at were not (imo) realistically balanced.

I get the idea that the current administration is pushing safety to the side, but there is another risk where safety becomes a blocker to reasonable change.

When I left that work (more than 15 years ago) it was clearly a blocker.

loading story #50396806
loading story #50395501
loading story #50395151
loading story #50399968
loading story #50397866
loading story #50395790
loading story #50397883
loading story #50395324
loading story #50396638
loading story #50395800
loading story #50395515
loading story #50396539
loading story #50395064
loading story #50404836
More information needed. Was this a sneakernet? No one thought of replacing with a floppy emulator and SD cards? All of the data can fit into 1.44MB?

If the last one is true, devs take note. If FAA can rely on slow, small storage for safety critical applications, you probably can reduce the resource requirements for your app and improve your customers’ experience and extend the life of their hardware.

> devs take note

There’s been an incredible expansion of computer hardware and networking in every dimension since the heyday of the floppy. And the floppy itself was a huge step up from technology of even a few years prior.

Your comment could have been made in any year since 1950, and it would have been both correct and irrelevant outside the areas most resistant to hardware upgrades. FAA is conservative, and should be, but the rest of us have supercomputers in our pockets.

Have software developers abused the hardware capabilities they have been granted? Of course they have. I’d love to see some care put into that. But beyond the basics, hand-twiddled hyperoptimizations are now an exercise for craftspeople. Or…AI?

loading story #50397569
According to this article, it's far worse than that: eight inch floppy disks! Capacity might be as much as 1.2MB per disk, but probably less. https://simpleflying.com/americas-atc-floppy-disks-12-billio...
loading story #50396586
loading story #50400318
loading story #50402766
The politically grandstanding is gross. From what I can tell E-IDS has been in development since at least 2020 with a planned rollout starting in 2025.

Unfortunately web search has gotten so bad that it's hard to find past information about it.

loading story #50398658
FAA website on EIDS: https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/technology/eids

Another article with some more details: https://www.pcmag.com/news/the-faa-is-still-using-floppy-dis...

I know they are saying IDS-4 is a "1980s" system, but it appears IDS-4 was actually developed in the early 1990s; it uses MS-DOS and 3.5 inch floppies: https://sysatl.com/systems-atlanta-inc-awarded-faa-ids4-sust...

Remember, this is the government we're talking about. That system was likely being worked on from 1980s to 1990s before itactually went in to implementation phase in 1990s.
loading story #50395853
loading story #50403851
> replacing outdated floppy disks that contain vital weather and other critical information with a streamlined, 21st-century system

What does this even… mean?

zip disks.
loading story #50395328
Micro-services with docker running out of a kubernetes compliant blockchain with somewhere some "AI" added in the mix. I guess this news is more for PR than anything else because I don't see how the replacement of 69% of copper wire is meaningful in any way. What copper wires? Where? Is it because you removed landlines and replaced with voip?
loading story #50393822
loading story #50395072
At the very least, physical media is airgapped. Floppies still aren't a good choice though, since they develop bad sectors so easily.
Do they? or is it low quality media? Rather than judging old tech bad, new tech good we should look at the requirements and tradeoffs. The failure modes of the new replacement system look more catastrophic to me, relying on cloud infra and internet links.

I can't find information about how the disks are used specifically, how often they are read, written, what data they are used for, if they can be replaced by floppy emulators, etc.

12 billion for a new system that might not actually be an improvement is a lot of money.

loading story #50396249
> they develop bad sectors so easily

I never had a bad sector on 5.25-inch Double-sided, Double-Density (360K) diskettes, but I did all the time with 3.5-inch HD ones (1.44MB). I'm seeing some references to 8-inch and some to 3.5-inch disks used in the FAA, but I'm not sure what source has reliable information about that.

loading story #50395898
there's no such thing as air gapping when people are involved.

The weather records have to be written to the floppy from an online device at some point in the pipeline.

The workflow has likely been compromised at some time, but due to lack of data integrity checks, it was never detected.

You've found the positive side to the fact that our government with budgets for all the money in the world can't seem to stay within 30 years of up to date technically.

If we give them more money, this is sure to improve! Monopolies and all ...

The problem is, with what media would you replace them with if you had to replace them somewhere between then and now? iomega zip drives? Jaz drives? CF cards? sony memory sticks? rewritable cds/dvds? Imation superdisks?

They could've replaced floppies multiple times, with all the certifications and hardware replacements and new procedures and regulations, and we'd still be using (a different, but still) "obsolete" medium for this now.

loading story #50400470
When I was 10 years old, way back in 1980, I got my first 5.25" diskette from the salesman of a COMPUTER AGE shop. He got tired of watching me type in the same old BASIC listings after school and spared me the damage of it by giving me the diskette, on the provision that I let other customers use the demo APPLE II's.

Sitting here now in 2026 I have a box containing almost 3000 3.5" FHD floppy disks.

Each about 1.544 Megabytes, unless you cut the notch.

I literally dumpster dived this resource after being invited in to do so at a local electronics shop closure, some years ago now, on the proviso that I did not leave empty handed.

There are about 12 devices in my living room that can use these things, but I'll never use more than 30.

Some day, I'll see the last one go. That'll be weird.

loading story #50399228
loading story #50397907
> The country's air traffic facilities cannot talk to one another and operate on individual analog computers.

I assume they just mean _old_ computers here. Unless they have some specialized analog air traffic computers? That would be pretty cool.

>The FAA cited an October 13 event where a fiber optic cable connecting Houston George Bush Intercontinental Airport to the FAA’s network was cut outside an airport gate, leading to the loss of data services between FAA facilities and requiring a ground stop.

Do they seriously not have a backup connection? I would have expected them to have a backup stelite or maybe even a 4G/5G mobile data system in place.

If I can use my phone as a Hotspot when Comcast is doing some service so I can work, I don't understand what idiot designed an airport without backup connections.

loading story #50395798
loading story #50395831
loading story #50395881
I’m surprised that they still find floppies to use considering the youngest floppy is now going to high school
I was in a tower last year. They were sequencing aircraft with little loops of paper placed onto a wooden dowel. It can and should be better. Doesn't need to be whiz-bang, but it should not be paper slips and wooden sticks. (and floppy disks)
loading story #50397525
loading story #50400544
loading story #50397554
loading story #50400340
loading story #50398997
loading story #50398043
loading story #50399173
I'm not sure I've ever laughed at a headline from a Hacker News post before.
I'd like to have some old computer accessories in home office.
loading story #50399346
Is it the last of the truly air-gapped federal agencies?
loading story #50396723
These are not serious people.
If it aint broke don't fix it
This is a headline from 1996?
loading story #50401781
wow never thought i would outlast them
I just hope they are not replacing the system with Claude
loading story #50397228
I'm more interested with the data integrity protections before the data got onto the floppy, and why those protocols (e.g. signature verification) couldn't be completed via email at the endpoint.
Replacing the drives with FlashFloppy would not be a crazy idea as a first step.
loading story #50399330
Can we phase out pennies instead?
I don't want the FAA to make changes at "lightning speed" or "rapidly moving to make upgrades" or "record pace". Safety must be further down the list for these guys.
Using outdated computer systems with aging storage media is a safety issue.
loading story #50393921
loading story #50393688
loading story #50393792
loading story #50404816
loading story #50403993
> “We’re moving away from outdated, manual processes and replacing technology that once relied on floppy disks with a modern system that allows controllers to instantly share critical flight alerts, restricted airspace schedules and pilot reports,"

So they make their systems run on the internet now?

What could possibly go wrong?

{"deleted":true,"id":50397098,"parent":50388001,"time":1793993044,"type":"comment"}
In my carreer I have seen plenty of system integrations working on ftp'ing request response documents to file folders on "SaaS" systems while the SV boys were considering SOAP obsolete and overnight Cobol and RPG mainframes document sincs while they were waxing about microservises and noSQL.
I love the idea that the headline suggest that Sean Duffy and his family at the completion of their multi-month road trip going on another one.

This one, where the tour stops are ATC data buildings, where they only stop in to swap out floppy disks for USB drives.

The folks over at The Onion are kicking themselves right now because they didn't think of this headline first.
loading story #50404043
> The greatest nation in the world deserves a state-of-the-art air traffic control system, and under President Trump, we’re delivering just that

They are signalling Trumps involvement so I will assume it must be another vanity project he wants to stamp his name on. I look forward to hundreds of grounded planes due to cloud based weather reporting not being available because of a borked server update or misconfigured wifi adapter.

> You can track the progress of the Brand New Air Traffic Control System (BNATCS) by state and airport on our Modern Skies website.

Another trump tell… Lame acronym.

loading story #50394710
They'll just switch to gold floppies
Next they will be migrating off Internet Explorer 6
great thing to read before a flight
hopefully not with pendrives
Zip Disks are the future. click click
I have heard of exploits that can root a machine from inserting a USB device (in fact, this has been used by attackers to conspicuously leave thumb drives in the parking lots of organizations they want to attack).

I have never heard of a sploit that roots your machine from inserting a floppy.

why is this "historic"? the thirst for this admin to use the most bombastic language possible is so tiring.

Just... modernize the thing already. thats your job. It's not impressive that you did this. You're supposed to do this. You dont get extra kudos for doing the thing you signed up to do...

and dont forget to put Trump's name at the beginning. Or he might get cranky

Everything they try to spin positively has to be 'historic' because:

1. The party leader is a fragile, dying narcissist who is desperate for his name to be attached to anything other than the misery he's inflicted upon the world.

2. Their _actual_ historic achievements are all war crimes, human rights violations, and policy changes that would terrify their average supporter if they actually understood the long-term consequences.

It’s historic because no else has done it in the last 40+ years. Doesn’t make it a big deal, but it’s still a big change.
loading story #50394184
You could call it histrionic.
What is this, a joke‽
loading story #50396972
loading story #50403354
I have a bad feeling that this is not going to end well. Especially given that this administration is... Rather incompetent. I hope that safety is like number one on their list of priorities but somehow I doubt it
I would rather things be done "incompetently" than nothing being done at all.
loading story #50394865
loading story #50399011
loading story #50397707
loading story #50394744
loading story #50397190
loading story #50396183
I agree, nothing says poor priorities like upgrading the air traffic control system. It removes the opportunity for graft, only supports the monied elite who can afford to fly and don't care about climate change, and diminishes the opportunities for crises to exploit.

Instead, the United States government should have continued the policies and values that led to Next Gen, ERAM, STARS, and AAS.

loading story #50394695
Out with FDD, in with GPT! (!)