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I think something that doesn't get said enough is Meta did, albeit intentionally kick off the origin of the open source race back in 2023 with the release of llama.

I'm not a big fan of meta in general, but they've done enough good, and it's possible that it was intentional as well. I don't know, I wasn't in the rooms, and I think it's worth giving them some reasonable doubt.

No one is purely good, and no one is purely evil. This is net good regardless.

Disclaimer, I work on Gemma and open models at Deepmind and the opinions here are my own

There were open models from EleutherAI (GPT-Neo), Google Brain (T5X, Bert), and HuggingFace was promoting open models (and others doing open work I haven't listed here) all prior to 2023 and the big Chatgpt moment.

https://github.com/EleutherAI/gpt-neo/releases

https://github.com/google-research/bert

https://github.com/google-research/t5x

If you're learning about AI models it's still worthwhile to review these models and codebases because they continue to be the basis of the technology that's being produced today! It'll give you a good perspective of how things have changed, similar to say learning about propeller planes before moving onto modern jet engines.

I honestly think of the T5 model family to sort of be the real beginning of this open model craze - I know BERT was already popular for classification etc, but T5 was the first sort of generally useful model, was exceptionally simple to fine-tune, and is still in use today (t5 base is still averaging over a million downloads a month on huggingface), has tons of variants and sort of kickstarted this whole community. US labs get a lot of flack but Google has been super supportive and open in a lot of ways that has pushed this whole endeavor forward, even if I feel like they've sort of declined in transparency in recent years with their open models.
Couldn't agree more and can only recommend T5 as a base to anyone. It's amazing to get started, whether as a learning resource or for real (albeit very tailored) applications. Especially the BigScience fine tunes are such a great starting point and I, as a total layman, have learned a lot, especially concerning how a model can be optimised via all manner of methods since even mt0 is small enough to where one can do multiple runs with wildly different outcomes in quick succession. Quantise, prune vocab, try different approaches to sourcing training data, retrain dozens of times, it's all pleasantly possible on consumer hardware [0] and surprising how much you can squeeze in functionality-wise. How does latency change vs memory usage, what affects format reliability, how languages and scripts affect training and the efficiency equation, etc. are all quite exciting to learn.

Understand why T5Gemma is no longer under Apache-2.0 and honestly, have not seen that much advantage when testing that vs T0 in my experiments either way, but still, there are good reasons why plain old T5 and its descendants are still popular, licensing being among them.

Gemma team also has very consistently interesting models, especially like DiffusionGemma. Ironic, as (beside 2.5 Pro), I have never warmed up to the Gemini series of models but rate Gemma models far higher than e.g. Qwen in direct competition. In any case, thanks to the teams behind these for making as much possible.

[0] As in proper consumer hardware, not a cluster of DGX Sparks or Mac Studios solely for experiments that sometimes are asserted as being consumer grade...

Thanks!

When is Gemma5 coming out? :-)

Hey, with the changes at Deepmind, is the Gemma project still ongoing?
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And yet it's not called eleuther.cpp or bert.cpp. And the famous subreddit isn't called r/localbert but r/locallama.
where's gemma 124b-a15?
Oh fuck, tjwebbnorfolk's got demands. Time to start working nights.
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That's simply not true. The reason why llama is open source is simply because it got leaked, then llama.cpp was the real game changer which was built from the ground up in depressingly short amount of time. Meta had no choice but to take the L and "support" the open source community. The angry "I-hate-you-and-I-hope-you-die" kind of support.
It’s hard to know in retrospect what was strategy and what was dumb luck. This was in the midst of hysterical calls to limit access by “AI researchers” and safety/ethics types, when very facile takes still has a lot of sway (I think we’ll feel the same in three years about the current Fable stuff). It may have been hard for Meta to just release it outright.

What ended up happening was fairly limited gating followed by a “leaked” magnet link and llama.cpp which really brought a whole revolution in open use and changed the conversation completely.

I have no idea what role Meta played here, it may have been nothing, but they certainly could have been more guarded if they were really worried about the leak. The result was a big change in the trajectory of personal and open source AI use and even the dialog about it. Whatever the exact intentions, they were a key player.

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> The reason why llama is open source

Llama has never been open source. It's source-available, but still proprietary, under terms that (among other things) say "no competing with us, you have to buy a license for that".

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Why do you think they continued to do it?

Ps: I work for meta, but not in AI related orgs.

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> The reason why llama is open source is simply because it got leaked

It arguably didn't really get leaked, and they had the .edu req mainly for fair use education exemption when legality of models was much more uncertain.

Open source != open weight. Big difference and it bugs me that nobody seems to care about using the right words in only this context.
If the weight, training and inference code, and training data are all released under of Open Source (OSI definition) license, the it is unmistakably “open source”. As you drift from that it becomes less clearly so, and when you get to no training data, and the model weights license having extensive limitations on allowed uses, the use of even “open weights” becomes deceptive.
Is there any relevant model that meets that "open source" definition?
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Also, llama isn't even open source; it's proprietary, with the source available.
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Words mean what people use them to mean. Ship has sailed whether you approve or not.
You can choose to use the wrong words all you want. Doing so intentionally is an interesting choice.
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Yup. An extremist wing of the FOSS movement ceded the debate early on by trying to insist open source required full access to the training data. Philosophically, not wrong. But practically fucked, so the word evolved.

Within tech circles, open weight != open source. Outside them, they’re synonyms.

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Enough good? You are joking, right?

They also kick off a ton of other nefarious things we are still paying for.

Yea this has to be a joke. They are one of the worst, no-good companies of the modern day and age
There are definitely evil ones but there are okish ones as well.
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Competely agree. React and whatever else they've open sourced is inconsequential compared to the harm they've caused.
I'd also argue React is on the "harm" side. :P
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Ha-ha they released nothing. It got leaked and without the source for it. Totally wrong to portray them as benevolent benefactors to the ML race
It was leaked which put it in the open, it got widely popular and they rode the wave. I'm not so such if they would have widely released it if it wasn't leak. Nevertheless mucho credits to them for following up with llama2, llama3, llama4 and now muse.
I have mixed feelings along these lines, I know meta have contributed to various open projects, sometimes Mark pays lip service to “the open internet" while his company represents a constilation of walled gardens. I think PHP got some love, and React is an industry goto (I'm more of a PHP... -> Svelte guy) but are these contributions worth what happened in Myanmar? I say no.
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Applying value judgements to corporate bodies or institutions as if they have individual agency is a fallacy anyways. We should always look at these things materially. "Meta" can't be good or evil, because an idea can't have a morality. It's comprised of the individuals who make the decisions, sure, but those individuals are always going to be motivated by a plethora of reasons which are often contradictory, most notably their material interests.

When we critiqe these sorts of institutions it's important not to prescribe value judgements on them and examine the circumstances of their condition materially.

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Meta is extremely net evil though
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llama was only three years ago? holy smokes! the industry is advancing so fast.
Gaddafi criticized Islamic fanatics; he was basically a good guy in the Middle East.
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Nobody learned nothing from the metaverse.
I think it's a case of "commoditize your completement" ...
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I know I'm just an old man yelling at clouds, but the sentence...

"Meta did...kick off the origin of the open source race back in 2023"

ignores the majority of open source software history[1].

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_free_and_open-sourc...

I imagine he was referring to the open source LLM model race considering the subject of discussion.
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>> No one is purely good, and no one is purely evil.

I will make an exception for Musk and DODGE

May be high up the list, but there's purer evil even than that.

Even if he is openly courting a Bond villain image and talking up his "robot army".

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A billionaire (now trilionaire) helping lead and celebrate an extraordinarily rapid dismantling process in which vulnerable children lost life preserving assistance...

Essential employees were fired before the government had even established that it could safely do without them, and then...

After brandishing the chainsaw of efficiency in public, in the most cowardly way, went and then invoked all legal protections from being deposed on DODGE actions, personally and not answering under oath about the key decisions in that dismantling.

> albeit intentionally

The model was "accidentally" released.

Meta was giving it to approved researchers only until someone leaked a torrent. Whether that was a researcher, an insider, or Meta's plan all along, we don't know.

Meta has withheld its best models, as have a lot of other "open weights" Chinese companies. When an "open weights" company gets ahead in one domain or modality, they tend to start withholding their releases. Tencent, for instance, began withholding their Hunyuan models once they became competitive. Alibaba has done the same.

The "open weights" strategy for the majority of players is this: open source when you're not in first place. Use the ecosystem to poison your rival's margins and play catch up on distribution.

In the West, it tends to take on yet another hook: "shareware weights until you pass $1M ARR, then you must license." See Flux, K2, etc.

The only way for open weights to make sense financially is if you have another income stream and are dumping on the market to destroy competition and/or can get people into using your inference infra / product ecosystem / tooling. Nobody's cracked this yet.

This seems provably untrue? GLM and Kimi have been at the top of the open weights conversation for a while, and K3 and GLM-5.2 were still released in full; K3 added a commercial clause to the license, but is otherwise still completely open for personal use. And K3 in particular isn't just at the open frontier anymore, but trading blows with the frontier frontier.
So you are complaining that there are too many open weight models and you would like less of them?
personally I'd love to see open base models, and let companies differentiate with premium access to post training and alignment - that's where the real fight is anyways. they really ought to be pooling their resources/data and getting more economical with the pre-train anyways.
Net good for Meta, they hope
I read this comment in a same way I read "Microsoft in not that bad" comments in 2020.

This is why bad people keep inheriting the earth. We keep forgiving them and they keep doing their crap.

> They've done enough good

Oh, please. Feel free to explain.

Facebook, Meta. 15+ years of emotional, child and human exploitation. Perverted glassware that spies on folk, lobbyists for age verification and who knows what else. They release an open model and all is fine and dandy? Nah.

Please get your priorities straight.

What do you think this Open LLM model is doing if not processing data from their murky sources?

> I'm not a big fan of meta in general, but they've done enough good

“Enough” for what? Surely not enough to offset all the bad they’ve inflicted and allowed on the world.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Facebook

> I think it's worth giving them some reasonable doubt.

Zuckerberg has shown through repeated action that he does not deserve any benefit of the doubt. This is the guy who called people “dumb fucks” for trusting him.

This is not even a case of “fool me once” anymore. If you continue to believe Zuckerberg, you’ve been fooled dozens, hundreds of times, and shame is definitely on you.

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The overwhelming majority of actually existing adult Americans use either Facebook or Instagram or WhatsApp and are unfamiliar with the theory that they are Nazis.
Willful ignorance as an excuse didn’t work out too well post-WW2.
Funny, the Germans said the same thing a long time ago!
???
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