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Please don't get a motorcycle:

A good felon buddy of mine has been out now for 4 years. He slowly built a car repair business, with steady clientele, and got his life back on track – including reasonable sobriety and a steady relationship. He and his girl would cruise around often, enjoying their newfound happiness.

Last week he totaled his Harley and his body (destroyed bike, multiple broken bones). Total reset. He now gets PTSD whenever a Harley revvs by passing... physically cannot work.

Please don't get a motorcycle.

I’m sorry if i’m missing something… what does this have to do with his story other than addiction and felony?

(fwiw i agree regardless, don’t get a motorcycle, lost too many friends to accidents or the following addiction)

The wrecklessness which brings some people into prison, is what brings them & others lusting towards motorcycle culture, often shortly upon release. Something something something anti-social something.

I'm just offering real-world advice after witnessing all the broken bones and jerked roadrash upon this tattoo'd convict's broken body. Shouldn't be alive.

Billions of people have a motorcycle globally... Some anecdote from a chronically motorcycle adverse culture (US) doesn't mean a whole mean of transport is invalid...
Most people riding motorcycles globally are not doing so on busy freeways at 60mph+ multiple times per day, surrounded by 2.5 ton vehicles with poor visibility traveling 60mph+

Putzing around an urban center on a cafe bike is not what it means to "ride a motorcycle" in the US.

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> chronically adverse culture

That's the thing. On a bike you can do everything right and still lose.

California is one of the safer places to ride given how many bikes are here and I've still had too many near misses as a trained, experienced, and conservative rider.

Most people put 1-2k miles a year on their bikes, when I was riding often I put on 2-3k/ month.

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The issue is the bodily risk of injury or death compared to nearly any other routine transportation or sporting activity: https://injuryfacts.nsc.org/motor-vehicle/road-users/motorcy...
A fairly large % of those people--I would wager most, personally--would probably rather have cars, but can't afford to.
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yeah I think you have PTSD from your friends accident.

Not all bike owners and riders have a shady history or risk taking behavior (aside from riding a motrobike).

He's just pointing out that after putting so much work into getting their life turned around it can easy be ruined by indulging in high risk behavior.

It's not bad advice, just unlikely to land. Thrill seekers seek thrills.

Have you ever been on a motorcycle?

Closest feeling you can get to flying and a helluva lot cheaper.

Bike costs are line noise, (cheap!) planes I fly are better part of $200 an hour.

I get what you're saying though. Barely been on bike since latest baby and wondering if I should just sell them for now.

As much as I miss riding and wife misses riding with me, if the worst were to happen, yikes.

> Closest feeling you can get to flying

I’d say this is a strong case against getting one for anyone who has struggled with addiction. In my experience a part of the constant battle is a difficult relationship with sources of stimulation.

I’ll second this. Back in the 90s when my addict brain was in full flight, I had a street bike for a year. There was not a single ride when I didn’t massively exceed the speed limit and ride recklessly. I loved it! Lucky to be alive. Lucky I had a partner who convinced me to sell it after our first child was born.

Having said all that and despite being in recovery for many years... I still lust after the feeling of completely unfettered freedom being on a bike on an open road. Before I bought my bike a friend had warned me that once you ride, you’ll never not want to ride. He was right.

Same. I got spooked after a car pulled out on the country highway I was doing 160 on. Then ran out of money and sold it. I just rode my Dads Harley, first ride in 20 years. Was nice but I’m good. I have a longboard and a little hill once in a while gives me the occasional adrenaline rush I crave.
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With a child it's easy to always justify spending the money on something else. I also miss the machine's simplicity and ease to work on.

While it probably sounds crazy, owning a tractor is almost as good. There are even more mechanical widgets to play with and it is dead simple and easy to work on like a motorcycle. I still miss the motorcycle but now I can actually do useful work while somewhat scratching the itch.

>Have you ever been on a motorcycle?

Absolutely. Broken bones, and all.

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>wondering if I should just sell them for now

>if the worst were to happen, yikes

Listen to yourself, Papa.

----

It's a young (dumb) man's game.

Motorcycles are ridiculously fun but yeah, if you have anything in your life worth preserving or sticking around for, it's statistically a pretty awful decision.
>Motorcycles are ... statistically a pretty awful decision.

This has been my favorite sentence (so far) in this discussion – whatever one's opinion is on motorcycling. Capital 't' Truth.

----

Thirty years ago, my mother gave me some small amount of money to NOT ride a motorcycle on roadways until after she died. Being young and broke, I took the money. stopped riding.

After she died, I had aged just enough to realize that I didn't actually want to ride motorcycles on-road, anymore. Even after decades of wanting to...

Somehow mama-up-there knew I'd eventually grow up, and it only cost her a few hundred dollars [to not have to witness my motorcycle accident (while alive, nor ever from-above)].

Thanks for sharing!

What are your thoughts on Roller Coasters? Hit a good theme park, ride maybe 6 with your eyes closed within a couple of hours.

I can't help but feel riding one (Roller Coaster) is much more optimal than $200/hr flying a plane, and much safer than a motorcycle, even if you rented vs purchase one.

> ride maybe 6 with your eyes closed

That’s like telling a skydiver to go ride the Drop Tower (or whatever the ride is that drops you straight down).

Not only is the experience different, but you aren’t in control. You aren’t controlling what’s happening.

For me a big part of the enjoyment comes from being in control of the bike.

Personally I would get zero enjoyment riding as a passenger on a bike. The thrill comes from riding and maneuvering the bike, not just going fast.

> For me a big part of the enjoyment comes from being in control of the bike.

Yes. Chasing perfection every time.

How smoothly can you roll out of this corner. How perfect a line can you take. How smoothly can you shift up or rev match and shift down.

I don't think I've ever been a passenger. My young wife enjoyed riding with me before our youngest came.

So an important invention that would save lives is a combined bumper cars + rollercoaster. Like the Witching Waves but faster.
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Great America gold pass holder for many years.

It's a thrill for sure. Mostly on the smaller coasters thee days because of the kids.

I've ridden a bike and I've also jumped out of an airplane. One of these is a lot closer to flying than the other, and it's not the one you suggested.
> Closest feeling you can get to flying and a helluva lot cheaper.

Hah, that's funny for someone who got into FPV quadcopters recently and just passed his motorcycle license. I might have a problem.

I fly RC planes. I've done a bit of RC FPV with monitors never tried goggles or quads though.
EUC or FPV are closer, FPV is also safer..
Yeah, I think this is the point. It's a "legal high" of sorts and a dangerous one. That flying feeling is addictive. Some are lucky enough to grow out of it, some aren't.
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if you do, I’d recommend taking motorcycle safety courses on a regular cadence in order to practice your skills. even if you’re a regular rider it’s great to learn the limits of your bike and do emergency maneuvers in a controlled environment

there’s lots offered near the bay area (where I’m from) and they don’t cost that much for what you’re getting in return

I ride. No way in hell I'd ride in the US.
That's horrible but also a stark reminder for how quickly life can change for any one of us...
Neither of us have health insurance (forty-something Americans -- USA! USA! USA!). My helpfulness towards him mostly knowing he has nobody else to help him (ER already stabilized him post-accident, plus another trip for sepsis). Also, I love dogs.

This has been a very terrible and very real lesson in mortality. Wish we had some basic social safety nets for middle-aged unemployables (e.g. single-payer healthcare).

True but a motorcycle is basically 100% given that you will crash and have bad injuries.
There are old riders and there are bold riders...

But somehow no old bold riders.

It's hardly any given. You can just ride properly.

In other countries they are a huge means of transport.

True. If you ride properly, then everyone else on the road is not allowed to hit you by the laws of physics.
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You can drive like a saint, you will still get plowed by someone who is dumb, or just on their phone. It's over!
It's a risky activity, yes, but lets not forget metropolitan areas in other countries are shock filled with motorcycles and most people live their entire life without being involved in any majorly serious accidents.
You mean scooters traveling <35mph surrounded by other scooters traveling <35mph

E.g. the most common motorcycle in Vietnam is the 110cc Honda Wave with a top speed under ideal conditions of ~60mph. It literally would not be called a motorcycle in the US.

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You could make a similar argument for bicycles.

Apparently the numbers for bicycles are a bit better, even in adjusted terms, but still. They're very unsafe in general.

There’s a study demonstrating life expectancy of 3+ years for bicycle Paris commuters (2+ for public transport) compared to cars. They didn’t evaluate motorbike.

The effect on physical and psychic health largely outweighs (sometimes to x30) the risk of accidents and pollution disease.

(2012, french) https://www.ors-idf.org/nos-travaux/publications/les-benefic...

It's a lot easier to ride recklessly on a motorcycle than an ordinary bike. I suppose mopeds/motor scooters (especially electric ones) are the sensible middle-of-the-road option.
I lost a good friend, a cycling partner, when she was hit by a car. I think she was a Cat 3 or 4 racer. Talented rider.

I haven’t ridden on the road since. Just no joy in riding anymore if it just takes one careless individual on a cell phone…

Every so often I think about linking up with a group ride again or even going to a spin class, but I just don’t see the fun in it anymore.

>I haven’t ridden on the road since.

It's laughable how proud some cyclists become when they think a painted stripe will somehow protect them from cellphoned sharks.

Obviously US bicycling infrastructure is laughably dangerous, and nobody deserves full-blame for exercising their legal rights upon roadways -- but e.g: biking up Lookout Mountain's shoulderless 2-lane highway is. stupid.ly common. These are tourist roadways winding through a mountainrange – are you cyclist's suicidal, or just hubric? Nobody knows where they are, and your dumb_ass is in the blindcurve going 2mph.

Your legal right #RIP

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I do wonder how much to trust averages on these statistics. I observe that I am much more risk averse than the average cyclist in my city. Perhaps my risk is really much lower, conditional on that knowledge?
I am very risk averse person and I won't ride a bike in LA. In a city with proper infrastructure I would love to.
In both cases the reasons often come back to the average motorcyclist and bicycle rider abjectly REFUSING to learn or respect road laws.

I live in a non-California state and I'm shocked whenever I see a motorcyclist who doesn't illegally lane split, who maintains a standard following distance (ideally 3 car lengths on an interstate), etc. Plus, most of them aren't even good at choosing leather jackets (not enough schotts or even made in Japan actual horsehide, lots of slop non-protective because most of these people are poor from the Harley purchase) and they don't wear proper protective heavy bottoms (i.e. leather/kevlar pants or HEAVY selvedge denim like 25 oz+). Many don't wear helmets because doing so might make them look like "fairies" to their friends in the outlaw biker gang.

Similarly, half or more of the cyclists in your average complete streets/walkable cities liberal area either 1. actually don't have a drivers license and are thus oblivious to road laws when they routinely get on the road, 2. refuse to use a helmet/put lights on at night/hand signal when turning, and 3. refuse to use perfectly good empty sidewalks (yes its legal here to bike on the sidewalk) to cycle on when possible.

I see this shit all the time, and I understand why they end up as roadkill time-and-time again. Keep winning Darwin awards. My heart goes out to those who legitimately did everything right and ends up squashed anyway, but the myriad number of idiots ruins it for the victims.

I actually don't know which makes me more scared to see on the road, a clapped out Nissan/dodge, a Harley rider, or a cyclist. At least the cyclists and nissan drivers are probably young and thus far more alert than the average geriatric who thinks they're so cool for owning the worlds most gaudy motorcycle.

Yeah man, it's the cyclists who are the problem, right? https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/39986875/
I grew up riding dirtbikes in a non-helmet-required US state.

>Many don't wear helmets because doing so might make them look like "fairies" to their friends in the outlaw biker gang.

I now live in a state which requires helmets for all riders.

This is a good idea – for exactly the reason you stated.

> maintains a standard following distance (ideally 3 car lengths on an interstate)

3 car lengths is a ridiculously too close following distance at freeway speeds.

It's only been a week; right?
Right; he is fucked up. Girl is now gone, having caught charges herself (stabbed him because he refuses most pain killers and is in a lot of pain right now//ashole).

So sad to see; I am walking his dogs; last time I saw him I said "I am just worried that this will make you spin out, again."

Definitely helped me continue deciding not to get a motorcycle, myself.

HD riders are known for not using decent safety equipment and that bullshit open helmet or none.

A freaking motorcycle with 300+ kilos moving ate highway speeds or more.

He had a fully-enclosed helmet, was wearing leathers and boots, and has years of experience. Was legitimately sober (I talked with him right before he left). One hand now looks like a grimreaper's bones, sticking out from blood-caked jerkybits.

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Certainly speed was a factor but isn't that why ya'll ride?

Well, I don’t speed. Had a accident once that made me learn the lesson.
Motorcycles aren't invulnerable 3 ton steel tanks but the stats and anecdotes are deceptive. They're really not that bad if you're not a moron, even if you're mostly worried about other road users. The stat are wildly bimodal.

~30% of deaths involve drunk riding

~30% of deaths involve not wearing any helmet (let alone full face ECE 22.06 rated ones or any other gear at all)

~30% of deaths involve someone with no motorcycle licence.

These aren't all mutually exclusive obviously, rather the Venn diagram probably looks rather...circular.

The issue isn't so much everyone trying to kill you, you can fix a lot of the visibility issues and you have some additional options if someone is about to hit you. The problem is that two wheels make for a VERY dynamic system and you're managing two different brakes with weight shifting between two wheels based on your inputs. To that end ABS and TCS are absolutely huge, IIRC something like >60% safety improvement.

Tldr don't buy an old retro bike with no safety systems and ride it drunk without a license or gear, you'll continue to pad the numbers.

Isn’t this suggesting that the majority of motorbike deaths are licensed, sober, safety-geared riders?
I absolutely love statistics – be careful with inferrences, though.

This rider (I described above) was

~sober

~helmetted (fully faced)

~licensed

Well since we're doing anecdotes, I'm a sober, fully helmeted, geared rider with 8 years and tens of thousands of miles under my tires. I've had two incidents:

1. I fell over at a stop sign on a canted hill while stopped because the rented Harley was so fucking big. I immediately returned it and will never ride a Harley again, those things suck.

2. I stupidly stopped just before the crest of a gravel road because I couldn't determine the best path (should have just trusted my tires and picked one), started sliding backwards. Rather than spin my tires and risk shooting off, or slide backwards into the unknown, I just tipped over and rolled off the bike.

No injuries either times. No at speed near misses. I have a simple rule: if I'm not 100% sure, I don't do it. A pass, a light, an intersection, when in doubt, I slow down, or stop, or hang out where I am in a lane.

Maybe one day I'll get taken out at a stop light or something random like that but the joy that riding has brought me I just can't give up. Exploring the world on a motorcycle is just amazing.

All activities come with risks. Motorcycling is up there but so is rock climbing, kayaking, rafting, hiking, bicycling, swimming - all activities I personally know someone who has been severely injured doing. You take precautions but you gotta live.

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as someone who just got back from a nice motorcycle group ride: lol
Stay safe, young grasshopper.

You can be the best rider in the world and still have a bad day/week/month/year/life.

Can never predict your future. Enjoy what you will, when you can. I was in a motorcycle accident in 2021, TBI, hospitalized for 3mo, induced coma, and rehab for 9 months after.

I am back on the horse. It is just a zen and still relaxing time, albeit more anxiety while riding, than before. Thankful I can still ride, and I do.

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And you can be the best car driver and still sway off or have some idiot crash into you head-on or miss a red light...
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I don't see the appeal of group rides myself. Always seems to be some stupid shit happening.

Half of the group rides I see are to "honor" or "remember " a rider who died doing something stupid as well.

That's a bit like saying "I don't wear a seatbelt when driving a car, but I've never had a problem."
The previous is a bit like saying "My pal got hurt in a car crash, never get a car".
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Get a motorcycle. Definitely don't get a HD though.