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The church, the message comes from, literlay makes the world worse for so many people on the planet.

Woman have less value under the church than man. Alternative sexual views are evil.

Church and any kind of believe system hurts our society and divides us.

> Church and any kind of believe system hurts our society and divides us.

Any belief system? And yet I bet you value freedom over slavery, wisdom over ignorance and compassion over brutality. That’s a belief system, despite not being a religion.

I can argue these values and we can discuss them.

If the majority says, no we want to be able to control other human beings, these people will reinact slavery. From a society point of view though we see that its not a working model anymore.

A real believe system can't be argued with. You believe in this god? This god says x and thats why you do things? Okay thats it. You don't even question were this information even came from.

If we delete all religion tomorrow and science, there is a realistic chance that the society rediscover the same existing rules like math and gravity, but religions might appear again but with different names, different rules etc.

I can change your mind with logic and arguments if its not a believe system, i can't do that with religion.

Wisdom over ignorance: The chance of survival is higher with wisdom

Compassion over brutality: This is just basic Game theory

Fornication culture is a big part of why the west is in decline.

What may make sense for you individually may also be empirically proven to be detrimental to the whole.

The new testament contrasts with the old, the gospel is one of tolerance and equality. It's a big part of why you have the rights that you do, as do women.

That said a lot of what you're saying can be ascribed to religious institutions and sects and individuals and specific churches. But your general prescription is like saying "this logical axiom is evil because XYZ ascribes to it and they are also evil".

You also have a belief system -- that people who believe in God do so because they don't question their beliefs, that religious people are only led by dogma. Yet your belief is wrong. Have you tried questioning it?

> but religions might appear again but with different names, different rules etc

Religions and scripture spread also evolutionarily. Christianity is popular because it is rooted in many truths.

> Compassion over brutality: This is just basic Game theory

And the game has been played.

"Fornication culture" who said that? We are more people on the planet than ever. Less people have to life lies like being in a marrage but also being homosexual.

Its just a control structure from the church without education.

Its probably even because of missing education. Educate people properly and they can handle "Fornication culture".

I don't have a believe system. I have a theory why people believe in gods and religions. We have evidence for it. People studied the origin of religions:

"It evolved from humanity's psychological and social needs, primarily our desire to make sense of the natural world, cope with the fear of death, and foster community cooperation."

We know how little people knew when religion started to emerge. Never seen space, never seen above a cloud besides a few poeople going up mountains. Thunder was not understood. Between 1400-1700 we had witch trials.

It is dogma. What is your argument against dogma?

"Christianity is popular because it is rooted in many truths." were is your argument for this? Its popular due to luck, power and wars. Missionaries as well and especially probably the most critical thing: Early indoctrination.

>> Compassion over brutality: This is just basic Game theory > And the game has been played.

Yes exactly. Compassion wins because its better, not because religion says so. Its an evolutionary win.

"Church"

ok

"and any kind of believe system hurts our society and divides us."

People shouldn't believe anything?

Disagreement and conflict are natural. How we handle these disagreements while striving for widespread peace and prosperity is the question.

I don't believe. I accept things i don't know and i know what i know.

There is no inherant issue with this. in contrary it makes me mentally stronger.

I can choose on my own terms if/when i want to end my life. If i get very sick, i don't have to hope for a god or priests blessing to end my life, i will just do it.

But religion is different: if you believe that homosexuality is wrong due to your religion, there is nothing i can argue about. Your priest told you this based on some book or story from 2000 years ago and you do not question this.

I know plenty of strong christians and muslism in germany who do not like homosexual people. And its dividing our society.

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The Vatican is guilty of being the most charitable organization in the world.
Does that mean that nothing of value can come from the church, and we should ignore all ideas they put forth out of some kind of spite?
Spite? Its not spite.

The church creates a believe system which indoctrinates all of us and took our cultures away.

The germanic tribes were believers in nature, church removed all of this.

Church also doesn't see woman as equal.

Just because they might sometimes also say postive things or things we might align, doesn't mean i need their oppinion. And especially not on hn

Indoctrination and cultural erasure isn't unique to the church. With Germanic tribes - the Saxons, Angles, Normans, etc., while women's rights ebbed and flowed over the centuries, they were rife with double standards and were still quite patriarchal. They didn't just believe in nature, they believed in the same pagan gods as the Nordic peoples.

The point is that times change, and institutions change, and holding grudges for long ago sins and policies is ineffective.

This is not true. The number of believers and official people in the church is continuesly declining around the globe.

1990 there were nearly 60 Million people in the church in germany (nearly everyone) now we are down to under 40 Million which crossed the line of 50%

This is real tangable progress.

The only downside is, that we do not sit together and formulate something which might give people hold who are not ready to be self stable mentally and might need something like this. And we also do not try to align together on rituals which help us to live better together.

I'm also still affected by the indoctrination of the church. As you can see, i argue against church not just because I like to argue, but because i really really hate religion and especially the christian church in germany, due to my own values and experience. This is not old i'm only 36.

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