Hacker News new | past | comments | ask | show | jobs | submit
What I have heard from AI it is anything but KISS... More features and more code as fast as machinelly possible.
It doesn't have to be that way. You can use llms to greatly improve the quality of the code. You do this by focusing on one part of the design use the LLM to explore alternatives, use it to poke holes in what you have. I think the engineering cultures that embrace this way of using AI will far outperform everyone else in the long term.
I just had a discussion with the AI recently about whether to duplicate the code something used or refactor it so both places used the same code. The decision was to duplicate the code, but make notes (and a ticket) to refactor it later - because the time to test the possible regression cases of the original code wasn't available right now.

I could have worked through all that on my own, but having the AI as a rubber duck to talk to - plus the edge cases it was able to point out - was really helpful.

loading story #50373034
loading story #50373095
loading story #50369897
People complain about LLMs not respecting KISS, but fail to address why = LLMs being defensive and coding for situations that either do not happen or are unlikely to happen. That doesn't absolve you from deciding using your human brain if given change makes sense or doesn't. You can also tell LLMs to not program defensively.

Same with any other acronyms - if you don't set up guardrails on when given principle should apply you'll get code that you can only complain about.

My complaint is that LLMs’ approach to making code robust is something we used to pejoratively describe as “enterprisey”.

Oftentimes there are two broad ways to fix a gap in the logic. You can eliminate the source of it, which often involves refactoring but tends to result in less code and cleaner, more comprehensible logic. Or you can leave the gap there, but attempt to render it safe by adding extra logic to detect and handle the error condition. This reduces changes to existing code, but makes the overall system more complicated.

You can’t just indiscriminately favor one approach. Which one of those is best depends on the situation. The deciding factor is often something like a time constraint that you can’t know just by reading the code. You might need to talk to your team before deciding.

But LLMs don’t do that. They always choose option B: slap a bandage on it. Keep on adding more epicycles. In the 2000s we learned that, over time, always choosing this approach inexorably leads to codebases that are brittle, bloated and expensive to maintain.

So the problem, from my perspective, isn’t that we shouldn’t be coding defensively. It’s that LLMs encourage us to do it in a way that we’ve already learned is unsustainable.

loading story #50368143
loading story #50369239
loading story #50368190
> coding for situations that either do not happen or are unlikely to happen.

Not coding for situations that “do not happen” is exactly what creates vulnerabilities. But I also don’t think that such code is the main source of complexity in LLM-generated code.

An example to what I'm talking about: I have application that takes two inputs from request. I've put in validation on request values to deny values that are greater than 100. In my code I'm adding these values. LLM can say "cater for addition of these two numbers, because they might go over MAX_INT and result in overflow". This is a situation that won't happen. LLM can recommend - add assertions. That's unnecessary.
loading story #50368422
Arguably it’s only unnecessary when the value range is enforced by the programming language (types). The structure of who calls what in the code can change, and suddenly larger values can appear. You don’t want to have to perform whole-program analysis on every change to check whether all assumptions made in the past still hold. That’s also a source of vulnerabilities: assumptions that held when the code was written, but stopped holding sometime later.

That’s why I think code needs to document all its assumptions, and in a way that is checked by the compiler to the extent possible. If you document that the values have restricted range, then the AI should be taking it into account.

loading story #50366474
Idk I routinely see the LLMs repeat validations that already happen in another layer or it imagines things that don't exist
I vibe-slopped a small and local forms application for my family. I explicitly mentioned that fact to the LLM.

Yet, I removed 2/3s of the code, because it triple-checked that every file really existed and was valid, that the input form was less than a million bytes in size, that there were propper HTTP status codes for everything, that every possible error from reading data was eagerly checked and caught, and so on.

Like come on, three people will ever look at it. So keep it small and tidy so I can understand it better!

> ... More features and more code as fast as machinelly possible.

i am going to quote that a lot...

I think 'clankerly' has a better ring to it.
Depends on your incentives, most people and companies are measuring Lines of codes and features as the metric so ofc it will increase it, but AI can create small KISS applications. It might have a little difficulties in doing so sometimes because it sometimes likes to overengineer things but I have to wonder how much of it is because it is RLHF'd to solve questions at any costs in terms of lines of code rather than training it in solving it in KISS principles. Also I wonder how AI will perform if we explicitly treat KISS as the only principle and have checks running on it and have it discard all the code which wouldn't follow KISS principle if it doesn't follow the principle.
Dunno about your company, mine measures in lines of code removed.
> have checks running on it

We don’t have effective objective measures of what would constitute KISS.