Hacker News new | past | comments | ask | show | jobs | submit

One-minute frequency disturbances from synchronization in power systems

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41560-026-02144-0
The corresponding concept in gears is to avoid meshing two gears unless the number of teeth are co-prime, because this will cause uneven wear patterns. If the tooth counts are coprime, then each tooth will contact every tooth on the other gear the same number of times, effectively "wear leveling" the teeth.

In this instance, one fix is to fire the timer every 59.XXX seconds, so it will naturally drift out of phase with the minute hand of the clock.

If work needs to be done exactly every 60 seconds, this is fixed by having a WAIT(RAND(60e6)) microseconds during the first timer initialization, so if 10,000 units start simultaneously they don't try all at once. This is good practice in most (all?) systems. Hint: test power and infra outage/reconnect, which can unintentionally sync timers.

This is why many software will do automated updates every 17 hours: 17 is coprime with 24.

Classic "thundering herd" mitigation tactics.

Edit: Tempting to blame IoT, but (since this is news) I don't think anyone knew there was something to fix here. We have the tools however.

I get a disturbing amount of equipment that does not take into account the inrush current of starting many loads at the same time. While each individual device is protected by a breaker that can handle the inrush of it's load the main breaker for the equipment is not sized to handle every load starting at the same time. The fix is to include logic that starts things up one at a time but convincing engineers, project managers, and machine owners that they didn't think of everything is an uphill battle.
loading story #50328165
loading story #50328020
loading story #50327758
loading story #50327613
59 seconds will still have second alignment. Maybe it needs to be prime milliseconds or microseconds.
loading story #50328046
loading story #50326864
loading story #50328377
Small nit: Wait(50+rand(10)) is probably closer to what you want to get about a minute between executions. As stated your proposed execution has an average about 30s execution interval with a variance of about 17s. If you’re talking about a random sleep on a 1 minute interval, this actually results in a possibility of 120s between tasks, also not what you want.

But yeah, as soon as you start using Rand most people make all sorts of mistakes. And if you’re using C Rand, don’t. It has other statistical problems.

loading story #50326442
Coprime meaning "no common factors".
I'm skeptical that this one minute jitter period is solely attributable to one minute timers in power inverter equipment. It's likely the net scale effect of all cron-like scheduling of actions in everything with a microprocessor. All the long-term scheduling that is done with minute precision (i.e. seconds field is implicitly :00) regardless of its individual period. Like if one device is scheduling at x:17 and x:47 every hour, another one is doing x:06, x:09, x:12, x:15, ... and numerous other combinations, at scale, the common divisor will be one minute. If wall clock time is used, all the devices that are synchronized to a network time will have cron-like scheduling events firing at xx:xx:00 for all values of x.

This type of scheduling should be randomized at the seconds level, perhaps. Unfortunately, it would require a massively coordinated effort across numerous operating system and application stacks.

Perhaps easier, now it's identified it can be anticipated.

Like TV pickup, where advert breaks in television cause surges in power demand.

The classic example is everyone making a cup of tea at the same time during the World Cup half time break.

Something as common as predictable as every minute should be simple to model in.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TV_pickup

loading story #50332184
> I'm skeptical that this one minute jitter period is solely attributable to one minute timers in power inverter equipment. It's likely the net scale effect of all cron-like scheduling of actions in everything with a microprocessor

The article says as much:

> The identified synchronization mechanism is not specific to UPSs or battery systems, but reflects a general property of digitally controlled devices operating with external timing signals or periodic software routines

Maybe too many things are started from crontab. Public NTP servers observe large spikes in traffic on minute marks due to admins putting ntpdate in crontab instead of running a proper NTP service.
I know my older APC UPSes do weekly self tests, but I guess newer equipment does more frequent self testing? And of course they're all internet-connected meaning clocks are within a few hundred ms of each other.

It also made me think about how many GitHub Actions I have that kick off on Sunday morning at a specific time. I try to vary the time/day for those jobs but I'm guessing there are enough things that kick off at specific time intervals to make an impact at the top of an hour, or at :15, :30, :45...

This is why systemd gives you the RandomizedDelaySec option. (Other cron-like facilities may have similar features, I'm not discussing them here). Set that to N and each time the timer reaches its trigger (say, once per day), its actual start will be up to N seconds after the trigger. E.g. if a once-per-day trigger is at midnight but you have RandomizedDelaySec=300 set, then it will run sometime between 0:00:00 and 0:05:00, with a different actual start time each day.

If enough people used that, with a high enough value of N (say 1800 for jobs that really don't have to start at any particular time), it would greatly spread out the spikes in accidentally-coordinated usage.

I'm not sure I agree with the conclusion that this is merely caused by UPS system control logic. That is an extreme amount of coordination across a lot of makes, models and configurations.

The FFT indicates this is a periodic signal, not a once a day or week thing. It's happening continuously all day every day. I don't know of any UPS systems that perform tests with this kind of regularity.

In any case, I refuse to believe an external sync signal is causing this. The more likely explanation is that the active elements are pulling each other to a common mode due to being physically coupled on the same grid. This is like how clocks on the same beam will synchronize.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Injection_locking

The external sync here is NTP. Synchronized clocks + timer-scheduled actions → globally synchronized behavior

From the article:

> The origin of these current peaks was independently confirmed by the manufacturer to be periodic self-tests executed by the battery EMS, confirming our interpretation. Similar minute-scale diagnostic routines are also documented for other commercial UPS systems (cf. Supplementary Note 8).

https://www.snaptec.com.au/akkutec-4801-din-user-manual.pdf

> battery circuit testing 1 x per minute for 1 sec

https://adelsystem.com/hubfs/PDF%20DC-UPS/Instruction%20Manu...

> The battery testing is carried out automatically every 60 sec.

loading story #50327389
Potentially related phenomenon: Across multiple locations >200km apart in France, I've personally noticed that mains powered lights reliably and visibly pulse a few times at the beginning of every hour, and half-hour throughout the day. From memory, it's roughly one or two 1-2s long sequences of pulsed dimming, at around 5-10 pulses/second. The pulse frequency doesn't seem to change, and it starts and stops abruptly. Does anyone know what this could be?
Generally this is a control signal injected into the power to control/inform loads about the current rate (e.g.: peak, off-peak), and other tasks. Pulsadis is a common system in France for this.
loading story #50332838
Cool, I thought grid stability attacks would rely on large numbers of IoT devices but it looks like computing infrastructure is the better target.

Whether it's by buying and using a trillion tokens strategically or by inserting synchronized malicious jobs it should be possible to find some resonant frequencies in the line frequency control system. By loading and unloading multi-megawatts of draw you could get the local supply throttling up and down enough desynchronize from the larger grid. If you could get real time measurements of the line frequency you could use that to tune your malicious load and do the whole 'pushing a kid at the peak of their swing' thing.

To mitigate you would have to put dummy loads or some kind of minute-scale power storage onsite or nearby to compute loads.

Multiple MW is noise level, even to a single moderately sized power production facility, let alone the whole grid region. This is not a viable attack. I can have an entire aluminum smelter trip off or start up and it won't phase my supply, a data center is going to be trivial unless you can spend enough to control all the data centers in which case youve just made the least efficient grid attack in history.

Further, there is no single resonant frequency, only the particular resonance of that exact moment in time. The grid is composed of many generating units, many transmission lines, many transformers. The resonant frequency of the grid is changing moment to moment as those things come online, get loaded partially, go offline, heat up, etc.

This is not a child on a swing set problem.

loading story #50327357
Van Jacobsen TCP synchronisation at queue points in the Internet. Led to protocol changes to de-cohere with a small random backoff.
That is exactly what this reminded me of.
{"deleted":true,"id":50327691,"parent":50314617,"time":1793554357,"type":"comment"}
A very interesting article, but it is disappointingly vague about what these UPS self tests are, and exactly how they cause disruption to the power grid. Figure 5b shows that their building's UPS has 20-amp spikes exactly every minute, which is a pretty big spike. My guess is that a UPS performs a self test by switching from line power to battery power. If most of the UPS units in a country do that exactly every minute, synchronized by NNTP [edit: NTP], yeah I can see that it would mess up the grid having all that load dumped at once. (Although the observed frequency disturbance of 1.5 mHz is extremely small, 3/1000 of a percent.) Now that the problem is identified, it should be trivial for UPS manufacturers to eliminate it.

(By the way, the article is in Nature Energy, not Nature which the URL suggests.)

> If most of the UPS units in a country do that exactly every minute, synchronized by NNTP,

Thankfully, usenet usage is way down, so we won't need to worry about this. ;p

loading story #50327634
loading story #50327637