At this point, Python is less of a programming language by itself but more of an interop protocol between various C/C++/Fortran/Rust binaries. But again, it's just part of the cycle, Python was a breath of fresh air 10 years ago when academia is still dominated by Matlab, but now it is mostly a mess of a language that's good for throwaway scripts but not very convenient for large software projects compared to statically typed languages.

I remember falling in love with Python when I first learned it at version 1.5, liked it even more with 2.0, but when 3.0 came around, that's when I noticed the ecosystem falling apart. Not for the obvious incompatibility schism: I do think most of 3.0's changes were good ones, and it finally is the standard default version now, but in many other ways it feels like the ecosystem has still never really recovered. Virtualenv is still the same grotesque hack, where rather than doing what other languages like Perl and Ruby do and making some wrapper around setting PYTHONPATH, it relies on python's behavior of locating the library path relative to the install, thus hardlinking a whole python installation in and making you "activate" it first. That nothing has managed to replace it in 20 years speaks volumes.

I work in python daily, it's not necessarily my favourite language, but I'd say it's mostly fine.

What languages are you thinking of specifically when you mention better thought out ones?

And the thing that maddens me the most is that it has a critical mass where it’s basically the default starting language and most people never really move from there. And so we’re stuck with this grotesque abomination that somehow keeps on rolling. The amount of money that was poured into python to make it barely bearable is probably the GDP of a small nation.

I’m not a fan either, but it doesn’t bother me at all. Who cares? Let the python people do their thing.

Fascinating take.

What do you attribute Python's success to, in spite of being a disaster of a language and ecosystem?

No other language came even close to a combination of easiness and expressivity of Python.

I've been thinking recently, there's hardly any reason not to use a native language like Rust anymore. The classic reasoning for languages like Python is that it prioritizes developer time and resources over compute resources, but now developer time is rapidly trending to zero and everything is compute dominated.

Unpopular take, but:

I work in python. It's only real and big issue is the slow interpreter. Everything else is resolvable one way or another. The only other big issue it has is the envy of people who imagine that if not for python, their beloved language would be as used as python is now. Most of their beloved languages are older than python or when they were created, they had much bigger ticket backing than python and those languages are still not where python is. The reason? Python is made to solve the issue one has now, not the issue one might have in the future. Local optimum at its best and worst. And honestly, most people have the current issue to solve and rarely reach the imaginary issue to be. If python didn't exist, it would have been invented.

I will take Python over typescript every second of every day. TypeScript is just so unreadable compared to Python.

OTOH I don't want to live in a universe where Haskell wins

As a Ruby dev I'm kind of primed to hate on Python a little bit, but I have to agree. I've written some Python over the years, I've tried to like it, but it just doesn't feel good to me. There are things that are really great about Rust, Elixir, C#, Swift, Java, Common Lisp... Sometimes it's the standard library, sometimes the package manager, sometimes a feature (borrow checker, pattern matching), sometimes a principle (everything is an object, the code is just data). In Python, everything is kind of meh. Like they came up with the list comprehension syntax and that was it for cool things.

The packaging is a nightmare thats for sure.

Venvs, activate, deactivate, shitty scripts hacking on $PATH. How did this ever ship? Then there was poetry, `uv`, and maybe something in else in $CURRENT_YEAR.

Try to set it up on a new macOS, go on. Install a package from pip, and there's a bunch of garbage that won't let you do it.

It's horrible. Python packaging engineer is now an FTE, maybe that's what they wanted.

Python had no corporate backing, no marketing, it became popular because people actually like to use it. Sorry you've only been using "better thought out languages" instead.

Python should have done runtime type checking instead of compile-time only String and List annotations and so on

Worse is better. Avoid using it yourself and tell others; that's the best you can do.

Python is pretty decent. What are you talking about?

I blame Perl 6

it could be worse like …PHP

> It's a disaster of a language and ecosystem

"unhinged" take