Hacker News new | past | comments | ask | show | jobs | submit
Nvidia's been pretty terrible for open source / free software. No need to quote Linus Torvalds here. They want to control what runs on their hardware. They want to you write code against their proprietary drivers and APIs, not directly against the hardware (which these days of course also contains plenty of software, but still).

Don't expect things to go differently this time around. Nvidia wants control over the software stack. Acquiring HF fits in perfectly. The play is long term.

NVIDIA is one of the most open labs.

They even share many of their pre-training and even post-training datasets for Nemotron on HuggingFace; for example: https://huggingface.co/datasets/nvidia/Nemotron-Post-Trainin...

Which other lab shares this?

Yes, there is no question NVIDIA wants to lock you into CUDA and their hardware. But also, they’ve consistently demonstrated the most openness when it comes to model training, datasets, and research; even before the LLM era (e.g. StyleGAN).

There’s also modelscope.cn (china’s huggingface) which is worth checking out. I would not be surprised if one day, we have to use China VPNs to download open weight models.

> NVIDIA is one of the most open labs.

Of course they are. They're commoditizing their complement.

I want to own the hardware, not play around in an nvidia fiefdom full of nvidia rules.

I'll expand on the economics somewhat. My intuition is that you can like a moat left of you in the supply chain, but dislike moats to the right of you. (I'm using left and right as I picture this horizontally drawn. It is usually called vertical integration by economists.) But free competition in your market is worst of all. Free competition right outside your moat is pretty sweet, and that's were parent is commenting on.

Nvidia probably likes that ASML is a monopolist (it's called a monopsony). The price is high and Nvidia can't scale as hard as they want to (more general: capital intensive market). This monopsony makes sure that other chip companies can't rapidly scale up and try to beat Nvidia. That there only ever was one other GPU firm (I'm prehistoric; once there were more) and they bungled it on software, is pretty sweet for Nvidia.

On the side of their customers. It would be best for Nvidia if there is free competition for the outputs generated from there GPUs. This maximizes consumer surplus and thus demand. Maximum demand for tokens, is maximal demand feeded in their monopoly. If there is a monopoly right from you, demand is curtailed, and your value is limited.

And that exactly is why you see interest from token generators for chips. Bridge that moat and gain a larger value surplus. Both NVidia and, say, China actively undercutting the token-supplier value chain is quite interesting to watch. It's like the Opium wars with us as somewhat happy customers.

In this same vein, why isn't ASML raising thousands of billions for building their own (subsidiary) chip foundries, while raising prices and starving the market (a little) for their machines.

{"deleted":true,"id":49460472,"parent":49459338,"time":1787810893,"type":"comment"}
You do own the hardware. Nvidia GPUs have FOSS driver alternatives (Nouveau, NOVA) and have supported OpenCL on the proprietary drivers since 2009.

If you don't want to use CUDA, they expose the PTX bindings to write your own CUDA alternative too: https://docs.nvidia.com/cuda/parallel-thread-execution/index...

When last looked at it, NVIDIA was not supporting OpenCL beyond 1.0.

Also, when running OpenCL, NVIDIA hardware disables multiple DMA engines, and allows only one memory transfer at a time to prevent OpenCL running as fast as CUDA.

Did NVIDIA finally allow open source drivers to access all parts and features of the card to allow feature parity? Last time I checked they were considering a plan for planning a solution to that.

OpenCL up to 3.0 is ostensibly supported: https://developer.nvidia.com/blog/nvidia-is-now-opencl-3-0-c...

I don't think bits like the GSP firmware will ever be open-sourced, but the opportunity to write better OpenCL drivers has always existed. Some of Nvidia's other proprietary driver backends (eg. GBM, Vulkan) are also decently neglected, but mostly out of disuse rather than malice. I don't think any of these things mean you don't own the hardware.

People love to blame NVidia on OpenCL failure, maybe Intel and AMD should actually deliver something compute researchers want to use?
I wish OpenCL was usable today like your implying...
Yeah, OpenCL fandom always blames NVidia instead of Intel and AMD for doing a shitty work.
nothing stopping you from doing that
Are you joking? They just bought HF for $13bill and didn’t break a sweat. They are dominant and spreading.
Can't buy a decent modern Intel gpu to run AI on because of nividias "donation"
loading story #49460547
loading story #49460558
I'm with Torvalds here, fuck you Nvidia.
"The proprietary shovel seller has some excellent tutorials on how to dig gold. Nobody else has such good step by step guides. Therefore them buying a shovel-agnostic tutorials and techniques method (that has a lot of info on using other shovels effectively) is justified."
They are sharing stuff that makes you consume their stuff. Their position with big ai companies is always vulnerable (asics/direct tsmc relations)
loading story #49460487
NVIDIA is a lot more than a “lab”.
lol “Everything you said is correct but you’re wrong because I’m thinking about something other than what you were talking about”
loading story #49460319
>No need to quote Linus Torvalds here

Evidently we should, because Linus has been more positive about Nvidia in the last 2 years [0]. I've been using the open driver for years now, for both gaming and CUDA.

[0] https://binarymusings.org/posts/talks/linus-on-ai-linux-in-k...

He definitely sounds more pragmatic than before, which is, in a sense, more positive.

> This is actually one of the benefits brought by AI; it has made Nvidia a good participant in the Linux kernel space. [...] Now, when Linux is so important for AI clouds, Nvidia suddenly cares very much about Linux.

loading story #49459966
loading story #49460304
I think this is part of an open-source play. I'm not arguing your other points, I think they're true.

They're trying to mix up the competitive landscape(that doesn't impact their bottom line, and I don't think opensource is eating their lunch), so I don't think this is fake, at least that's my initial take.

loading story #49460162
Nvidia has hardly open sourced the nvcc compiler, yet no-one here is complaining about why it is closed source.

Modular on the other hand creates the Mojo compiler gets criticised for not open sourcing it immediately and now once they do, no-one cares anymore.

Huggingface was not just a target for open source, but as a force to have open weight models run better on Nvidia against the rest.

loading story #49459821
loading story #49459019
loading story #49459377
loading story #49458952
loading story #49459566
loading story #49460502
loading story #49458508
loading story #49458639
loading story #49458710
loading story #49460564
loading story #49458856
I have never seen an acquisition be good for the users. I struggle to believe this one will be different
loading story #49459309
loading story #49459255
loading story #49459418
loading story #49458857
loading story #49459017
loading story #49459263
loading story #49458990
loading story #49458377
loading story #49459217
loading story #49458535
loading story #49458804
loading story #49460492
loading story #49458910
loading story #49459242
loading story #49459080
loading story #49458442
loading story #49460196
loading story #49459373
loading story #49458383
loading story #49460506
loading story #49458729
loading story #49458619
loading story #49458409
loading story #49460043
loading story #49459064
loading story #49459483
loading story #49459410
loading story #49460510
loading story #49460393
loading story #49459360
loading story #49458531
loading story #49458855
loading story #49460289
loading story #49458691
loading story #49459073
loading story #49459223
loading story #49458958
loading story #49458524
loading story #49459435
loading story #49458932
loading story #49458493
loading story #49458742
loading story #49459402
loading story #49458394
loading story #49459843
loading story #49458873
loading story #49458673
loading story #49458770
loading story #49458380
loading story #49459706
loading story #49458847
loading story #49459361
loading story #49458751
loading story #49458456
loading story #49459679
loading story #49458593
loading story #49459848
loading story #49460150
loading story #49459469
loading story #49458996
loading story #49458899
loading story #49458731
loading story #49458488
loading story #49458386
loading story #49458366
loading story #49458886
loading story #49458682
loading story #49459275
loading story #49458658
loading story #49458438
loading story #49460617
loading story #49458382
loading story #49459407
loading story #49458764
loading story #49458425
loading story #49458776
loading story #49459307
loading story #49458365
loading story #49458786
loading story #49458186