Hacker News new | past | comments | ask | show | jobs | submit
Turing-completeness is a necessary pre-requisite for being able to fulfill the requirements of a Turing machine, nothing more. In the same way that cell division is a necessary condition for life, but cell division does not mean a given life form itself is sentient.

Intelligent life-forms can generate probabilistic outputs based on inputs, but being able to generate probabilistic outputs based on inputs is not what makes us intelligent.

OK. A more pointed question. What do you know about intelligence that allows you to exclude LLMs with CoT from the category of intelligent systems with certainty?
How do you know there's not a teapot orbiting the sun?
There is no reason to think that teapots were sent into orbit or spontaneously formed there.

Likewise, there is no reason to think the brain employs super-Turing or quantum computations that cannot be approximated by LLMs.

The point is that you're asking someone to prove a negative.
Right, it follows naturally that one can never meaningfully discuss that which can only be settled by proving negatives. Hence the total lack of debate on religious topics, as everyone just gave up 1500 years ago and decided that God indeed may or may not exist and that's that.
It's a negative in your worldview where "intelligence can't be a computation" is an axiom or something close. To me this worldview is sloppy thinking.
I did not express my opinion or "worldview." I was simply responding to this:

> exclude LLMs with CoT from the category of intelligent systems with certainty

Why do you think that intelligence of a Turing-complete system trained on human data can be likened to a Russell's teapot?

At least, don't you think that the recent mathematical results of LLMs are a bit like a glimpse of something teapot-shaped in the orbit? (which makes it not a Russell's teapot, which. by definition, can't be observed).

To me, it's an expected progression of ANNs' approximation of human cognitive processes. The universal approximation theorem guaranties the existence of such ANNs barring the super-Turing or quantum superiority of the brain.

> Why do you think that intelligence of a Turing-complete system trained on human data can be likened to a Russell's teapot?

I don't? You are presenting opinions as if they are mine, but they are not.

To my knowledge there are many millions of teapots orbiting the sun.
No, they're all orbiting the Earth very badly. :p
You’re right to point that out. The load-bearing seam of your logical retort is the hidden assumption that the teapot is in outer space, not at peace on a kitchen stovetop here on earth. I am sorry I had not considered this fact. \s
They were modeled after us, which almost certainly dooms them to stupidity.

They could have been great, if trained on datasets from a more sensible species.

> but being able to generate probabilistic outputs based on inputs is not what makes us intelligent.

???

Of course it is. The brain is mechanically not capable of doing anything other than that.

Do you believe the brain is something other than a bundle of probabilistic physical interactions? Or are brains not the source of what we call intelligence?

May I suggest the excellent & recent book: "The brain. In theory" by Romain Brette?

This is going to elevate your thinking on this no end, if you're interested.

Looks interesting (added to my list, thank you for the recommendation), but not actually relevant to the topic at hand.

We know that the brain is a probabilistic input → output machine because the universe is a probabilistic input → output machine. The brain is made of universe. There are deterministic relationships (which at high sensitivity or complexity become easier to describe as probabilistic), and quantum relationships. That's it. The brain, like every other thing comprised of "universe" is comprised of those two types of relationships.

If Romain's book provides evidence of relationships in the brain that are neither quantum (therefore random) NOR classical (therefore deterministic), then 1) he would have already won at least one Nobel prize, and 2) anyone in this thread would be able to at least gesture toward what relationship that is.

You're a fast reader :-D

No quantum bullshittery in there I promise.

Equating "classical" with "deterministic" is however pushing it a bit too far, when no one and nothing can ever do even a very small fraction of said determination...

loading story #49160347
We don’t know
Of course we do. Unless the brain is an object unlike anything else in the known universe, then it's an input → output machine.
This deserves about as large of a "[citation needed]" as one could draw. Are you well-studied in neuroscience?
Nothing in the universe is anything other than a chain of reactions, amigo.

The brain is an object in the universe.

The universe has quantum behaviors (fully random, not a source of intelligence) and it has deterministic behaviors (fully non-random). Many of those deterministic behaviors are so complex that they're easier to analyze and describe as probabilistic, which is where most brain input → output relationships land.

Please point to any evidence whatsoever that the brain has some third type of interaction going on that has never been observed anywhere in the entire universe, then we can have a discussion about it.

Its baffling to me that people think the brain is somehow "outside" of the universe and somehow "magic" and not tied down by physics just like any other matter is. I don't understand how people come to this conclusion, except in the case of belief in magic or religion (which is belief in magic more or less).
Yeah, that's ultimately this whole conversation and people just don't have the courage to acknowledge their own beliefs.

The brain is a (very complex, incredible) input → output machine. That's it! It's incredible!

I don't understand why people are so afraid of this that they will believe otherwise with literally zero evidence whatsoever.

Why is the brain probabilistic instead of deterministic?
Probabilistic and deterministic are not opposites.

The brain is deterministic at the level of specific interactions, which process inputs in a highly chaotic (but still deterministic) manner into probabilistic outcomes.

The opposite of deterministic is random, i.e. in the quantum sense of truly no relationship between input and output.

There are probably some quantum effects in the brain here and there, but the vast majority of it is just traditional deterministic interactions networked together in such a complex system that the resulting behavior is much, much easier to predict in probabilistic terms than otherwise.

Ok right, but then I don't see the original point. Or like, you don't seem to be appealing to a hard science/soft science distinction here if the question revolves around what conceptual model is most "useful" to us. Useful for what? For predicting future actions? That makes sense, but does actually that speak to op's (possibly still fraught) metaphysical/semantic point here? It just feels like you are speaking over it, right? They could just as easily counter that a probabilistic model of the physical brain is not a very useful description of human intelligence, so why use it? You can't appeal to materialism here because you are already practicing some implied pragmatism in your commitments. You pretty much have as much ground to stand on as they do!
I am saying that there is no categorical distinction to be made on functional grounds between artificial intelligence and brains.

You cannot say an AI model cannot be intelligent because it's a probability machine, when all available evidence points toward natural intelligence also being generated by probability machines (much more complex ones, called brains).

But brains do much more than just predict tokens based on previously seen tokens. I think all the other things brains do are probably important for our intelligence.

So, LLM are just next token predictors, brains are next token predictors + many other things in addition, and that makes people still feel LLM are dumb even when they solve a lot of problems using tokens.

loading story #49160568
loading story #49160381
This seems fine but things being the same "on functional grounds" is just one way things can be the same. Why should we privilege this framing as something definitive versus another conceivable one?

On functional grounds my bike has not a lot of distinction from a horse, but just, like, saying that doesn't tell me much about either. Or at least, it seems to leave out a lot of otherwise crucial details and differences..

What does it mean to you, this point of view? Are you truly coming from like a 20th century pragmatism point of view? Where what is most useful is what is right? Or are your trying to make a larger claim about nature? I think being clear about that would help focus your critique here.

Yours is a controversial view. It is lazy and selfish to try to get other people to explain their case that it is not exclusively that, when saying that it is exclusively that is the weaker case, and you back it up with nothing but a snarky proclamation.

Are newly born babies reacting due to statistical probabilities that they have derived, or are they using something other than their brains?

> Are newly born babies reacting due to statistical probabilities that they have derived, or are they using something other than their brains?

The answer is obviously yes lol.

The creature is an assemblage of electrical, chemical, and kinetic relationships.

Watching a baby develop is exactly what you'd expect from a system that's predominantly electrical noise triggering behaviors and then gradually refining denoising the relationship between inputs and outputs, with the goal function of achieving more desirable inputs.

Surely you can at least gesture toward one thing in the brain that appears not to be a probabilistic relationship between input and output?