I do think that over the past few months, it feels like the hype around producing unmaintainable amounts of LoC has started dying down. More pragmatic and realistic takes are seemingly shared more openly, and are maybe even getting through to top leadership at some tech companies. Maybe not all is lost yet.
“Technical debt” never hooked management in the same way and we have found it hard to convince them that it needs to be addressed. Debt in general is something that can be a problem, but doesn’t need to be avoided or addressed until it is a problem so the can is kicked down the road.
To me, tech debt, captures the idea that we cut corners now to move faster, with the understanding that it will need to be "re-paid" and cleaned up later, otherwise we take on too much tech debt, and everyone knows too much debt is bad...
AI slop code means people feed their tasks to a model, trust it to drive the changes, they might do some cosmetic clean ups, then generate a 3 pager PR description they didn't even read themselves, then toss it over to the code reviewer, let that chump figure out what the hell I was doing while I ship 3-4 more PRs...
AI slop is an easier concept to quantify. It's basically the code for which insufficient people in the organisation have a meaningful understanding of how it works or what it does.
Its connotation also includes being vastly larger than needed for the purpose it serves, _if_ there is even any purpose.
Seemingly engineers get this wrong too. I'm reminded of when Cursor bragged about how many lines of code a group of agents could produce, with the underwhelming results of a barely working browser, when the same could be built with much less code.
But they highlighted the amount of code as they were proud over how much slop their constellation of agents had shit out, and these were supposedly engineers, really strange to see.
And anyway, I’m pretty sure what people really mean by this “less is better” mantra is: the lowest amount of code that still accomplishes the goal and is still readable is preferred. Linux apparently has 40M lines of code, and I bet most of it is better than mine. Some things just take lots of code.
Which seems to leave room for these agent salesmen to pitch SLoC as a plus. We just have to believe those lines are all good ones. I that case, it would be impressive. I don’t believe it, but they are probably pitching to people who do.
No, it's the perspective of a programmer who wants the project to not be bogged down too much in technical debt so every change gets slower and slower to implement, as everything gets more intermingled. A clean design helps you move faster for a long time, compared to a design that is fast to implement but makes it hard to move forward properly in the future, without resorting to shortcuts and/or hacks.
> Some things just take lots of code.
True. Rich Hickey does a good job differentiating between what's complicated because the domain is complicated, VS what's complicated because the implementation just ended up that way, even though with some more thought and design, could have been made a lot simpler.
I think it is (or should be) a goal & business-oriented concern as well, not just an engineer's who enjoys their craft.
More complex systems are worse than simpler systems (that accomplish the same), in cost, maintenance, fragility, ease of understanding, etc. Fewer moving parts usually result in higher reliability, fewer things that can break down or fail to interact properly, etc. That's a business concern too, not just engineering craftmanship or whatever. Business people should care about this too.
I don't think this is the same as bikeshedding over irrelevant details, something we software engineers are often prone to. Monstrous complexity does impact the business!
I wonder if a small part of this is more and more business and product people actually trying to incorporate AI into their daily workflows. I have seen this in both small companies I work for. People were very excited about getting Claude Cowork a couple of months ago, and while they use it daily, I would say they are rather underwhelmed compared to the magic they were expecting. Complaints include the output being mediocre and verbose, it getting the most basic things wrong, hitting token limits all the time, and people going back to doing things themselves because it is faster.
Sure, there is some degree of holding it wrong in the beginning, but people are realizing that maybe, just maybe, there is still somewhat of a gap between what AI CEOs, LinkedIn grifters, and YouTube AI supplement peddlers claim and reality.
I wish I were joking.
(The had never been an engineer.)
Why? If you can deliver the same thing in fewer correct lines of code wouldn't that be preferable? At a bare minimum if you're still insisting on using AI to slop out your project, having it do things in fewer lines of code means you can fit more into your LLM's context window.
it really depends on what you're doing. If your goal is "become interoperable with the N different and incompatible network protocols that people have devised for doing task X" I'd really like to know a solution that doesn't have at least some part of the amount of code that scales with N.
Example: consider https://bitfocus.io/connections which connects to 700 different things. Right now it's written with Node.JS, with one repo per connection (example: https://github.com/bitfocus/companion-module-meyersound-gala...). Let's say you want to make a similar product but that runs on ESP32 where performance is paramount so you need C++ or Rust. How do you do that without at least as many lines of code as the existing JS implementations for every system supported by Companion?
Moreover, writing too terse code harms readability and maintainability. There is such a thing as irreducible complexity.
Did those engineers not actually read the complete tweet? Because it wasn't about "engineers should write 1M LOC per month of product code" it was "we want to scale automated porting of code to safe languages so that 1 engineer managing 1M LOC of automated conversion can work". Which doesn't seem like satire at all..? It just means "develop mostly reliable AI-driven refactoring tools with good guard rails". Which seems quite sensible, actually?
Making a grand claim of a goal and not really having an explanation on how to achieve it isn't really much better. I could say "we want to scale food production so that one farmer could manage a million acres of corn a month", but that wouldn't really be sensible. A line of code is less work than an acre of corn of course, but I don't think it's at all apparent what upper bound for how much code is actually plausible for a single engineer to generate in a month and have any degree of confidence in. Given the absurd levels of hype around AI from non-engineering management in the past couple of years, it's not clear why the benefit of the doubt is earned here when there legitimate are managers and executives claiming pretty much exactly what you're claiming this guy wasn't.
Porting to a new language is easy, but does nothing useful. What we need is to fix the mistakes of the past so we can get to the future. We need to make acceptable performance.
> Because it wasn't about "engineers should write 1M LOC per month of product code" it was "we want to scale automated porting of code to safe languages so that 1 engineer managing 1M LOC of automated conversion can work"
These are one and the same. Whether it's ported code or not doesn't change that. The framing device also doesn't matter, because it's the exact "Oh it's our goal" shtick that executives use in the former's case.
"It's just a measure" doesn't cut it in a world where every single AI measure immediately gets turned into a target by executives greedy for efficiencies that don't exist.
EDIT:
Right, I forgot. This is HN where everyone is a galaxybrain and "Port a million lines of code per month" is a totally reasonable goal for a single individual.
Otherwise it really sounds like a recipe for unnecessary huge risk with dubious expected positive outcome.
Not saying don’t have fun, but on the other side maybe not with the core product of you cash cow already?
Because many programmers don't believe that'd work. See the reaction to Bun's porting to rust. (I bet Bun will work and prove those programmers wrong, but that's another story.)