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Show HN: I Derived a Pancake

https://www.absurdlyoptimized.com/recipes/pancakes/
313bkazez | | 126 | HN
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thechao | parent | next
A ten hour wait doesn't really strike me as a pancake? You should have a "it's 730am, there's four screaming girls, only two of which are related to me, the dogs are begging for scraps, and the demand for pancakes has crossed into Veblen goods territory."
bkazez | parent | next
Haha, just for you - check out the new checkbox at the bottom of the form:

https://www.absurdlyoptimized.com/recipes/pancakes/?have=&eg...

I'll leave the rounding of the absurdly precise ingredients to you. :)

saxonww | parent | next
The default has the 'tang' slider at maximally tangy, which is where the yeast and wait come in. If you back off on that the recipe looks more like the standard quickbread I'm used to.

The yeast and ferment is going to make it more acidic, and more tender because the gluten will be weakened. I imagine you could use cake flour instead and get close to the same tenderness, but the flavor would be different.

shermantanktop | root | parent
Maybe add a time-to-pancake slider?
airstrike | parent | next
The good thing about that scenario is no matter how the pancakes come out, you've already won
chickensong | parent | next
One size doesn't fit all. By your logic, homemade sourdough isn't bread, you should have packaged Wonder bread.

Keep a box of Krusteaz in the pantry for the kid sleepovers, prepare the night before for an adult brunch.

Ntrails | parent | next
Man, at the rate I can generate pancakes I fear four children would murder me and just drink the batter raw. Though maybe I'd buy a second pan in advance xD
benoitg | parent | next
It depends. The inspiration sometimes comes after a Saturday evening with friends and lots of drinks. Having a foolproof recipe comes in handy, and having the perfect stress-free pancake batter already made the next morning turns you into a household hero.
esafak | parent
If you know the kids are going to want pancakes in the morning you just prepare it at night? You can ask them to confirm over dinner...

While I can confirm sourdough pancakes are quite nice, I am satisfied with Krusteaze :)

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gettingoverit | parent | next
Actually, the whole website is fire. There are articles on the same level on how to select T-shirts and pants.

This is the second time I see a reviewer online doing the thing that was common a couple decades ago: actually doing the research.

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sohex | parent | next
Well I have a new favorite website. I don’t know the last time that I read something that was so thoroughly and multidimensionally my shit.

Not actually measuring crispness when you self report having the perfect equipment to do so is a cruel, cruel tease though.

bkazez | parent
Hahaha, glad you're enjoying it as much as I did! I will have to add a crispness slider and then validate it with expensive audio equipment.
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hedgehog | parent | next
I want to like this but it reads like Claude output, how much scrutiny did this get for accuracy?
ike_a | parent | next
This was my immediate thought too. The same website has at least a dozen similar articles written over the past week, all with this same AI tone.

In the same week:

https://www.absurdlyoptimized.com/recipes/grilled-meats/ http://absurdlyoptimized.com/recipes/brisket/ https://www.absurdlyoptimized.com/recipes/french-fries/ https://www.absurdlyoptimized.com/recipes/miso-salmon/

Parametric recipes are fun idea. I almost want to try them, but the sheer volume of content by one author gives me no reason to trust this will be any good.

Did the author actually try these recipes? Unless the author was cooking and writing 24/7 or just had a massive backlog of publishing, it's hard to trust anything here (although I'm sure most people will.)

jamessb | parent | next
> it reads like Claude output

Yep. From the site's about page:

> This site is produced with substantial help from large language models: they assist with the literature search, the drafting, and the arithmetic.

https://www.absurdlyoptimized.com/about/

> how much scrutiny did this get for accuracy?

The inclusion of references without hyperlinks suggests it wasn't thoroughly checked: they were probably put there by Claude, and as they aren't links the author probably hasn't read them (they could possibly have read them in hard-copy at a library, but given the rate at which articles were produced this seems very unlikely).

(One such reference is 17 - "Weijers, M. et al. “Heat-induced denaturation and aggregation of ovalbumin at neutral pH described by irreversible first-order kinetics.” Protein Science 12(12): 2693–2703, 2003")

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kstrauser | parent
We’re using vastly different models, then, because it doesn’t read like any generated text I’ve seen before.
ike_a | root | parent | next
What models are you using? This looks incredibly similar to the outputs I get from Claude with default system prompt settings.

- First, take a look at the other articles. There are 30+ articles all with the same author published this week on topics from cooking to home appliances. Either he's extremely prolific or had help.

- There's so much click-baity LLM language: "The radial gradient: why edges undercook on every hob" "What “crispy” actually means: acoustic fracture mechanics" "What Actually Matters"

It's clear to me that at least some of this is LLM generated, so all of it might as well be.

shalmanese | root | parent
"The three effects are not separable knobs. You cannot dial in one without moving the other two.

The browning claim is the contested one, so it is worth pinning down. "

Is classic Claude-speak.

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applfanboysbgon | parent | next
There's a whole lot of "I" in this post for something you didn't do. Why are you taking credit for Claude's work? What makes you feel entitled to say "I did this thing" when Claude did the thing?
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chrysoprace | parent | next
Awesome work. I'm really interested in the parametric-driven recipe card. I wanted to do something like this for bread recipes where you can tweak the hydration / salt levels to alter the recipe but still get a traditional recipe card. I would be really curious to hear about the approach in more detail.
bkazez | parent
Thanks a lot! Good idea re bread - can you link me to your favorite more general recipes that show all the extremes/variables? I've skimmed some bread textbooks re enriched doughs and have made some Italian breads with sourdough starters, enriched doughs like challah, and once tried the NYT Dutch oven bread, but I don't make bread as often as I make pancakes.
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saxonww | parent | next
You've covered dairy and acid ingredients, but I honestly have no idea what "Unrendered Berkshire pork fat" is or where I would get it. Is that bacon grease? Saltpork? Lard is common but rendered.
bkazez | parent | next
Thanks! It's entire chunks of fat from a Berkshire pig. Lard works too and is what you get when you render pork fat, but the rendering removes some flavor. I'll update the recipe.
NopIdoN | parent
Probably suet, which is raw and found around kidneys and loins.
sastra | parent | next
Yes! The world needs more Parametric-driven recipes. This is fantastic. Love it.
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iwassayinbourns | parent | next
I would love to see the gluten and dairy free pancake recipe incorporated into this one for additional customizability. For example, what if I’m gluten free but not dairy free? Or happen to only have soy milk on the day but I’ve got plenty of butter?
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marticode | parent | next
This is great but at this point you should also give the calories since you have all the precise ingredients
jiggunjer | parent | next
Funny. When you input only milk and soy milk, it ignores the soy. If only soy, suddenly the butter needs to be vegan.
jtbayly | parent | next
Wow. I really like this, but I want it to support non-dairy options.
jpdenford | parent
Plus one!
bkazez | root | parent
Good idea, added! If you have only vegan dairy checked, it'll go for vegan butter too. :)

https://www.absurdlyoptimized.com/recipes/pancakes/?have=soy...

aziaziazi | root | parent
There’s many brand and formula of those butter. For more predictability, raw ingredients might be coco oil, coco butter or Shea butter.

By the way my favorite pancakes are made with tofu and/or silken tofu.

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paulorlando | parent | next
Nice... Would be interesting to connect this to pancakebot.com
bkazez | parent
Hilarious, thanks for pointing me to that!
mrmincent | parent | next
This is awesome, chefsteps should hire you to do their parametric recipes.
chickensong | parent | next
> My particular favorite are the yeast-raised lemon ricotta kefir pancakes - the best I've ever had.

As a lemon ricotta pancake and yeast enthusiast, I look forward to trying your recipe! Thanks for sharing!

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mmastrac | parent | next
Looks great, but why isn't there a checkbox to turn off the chunk of pork fat? I use avocado oil, personally.
rendaw | parent | next
I like the table layout, with ingredients in a column, and rows being steps. It feels like a "best of both worlds" solution. I'd kind of like to have a list of "baseline required" ingredients though too, to know what to keep around.
bkazez | parent
Thanks! The layout was inspired by the way my mother recopied her recipes. When I first saw how most recipe books wrote recipes, I was so confused! As for baseline ingredients, it's basically (any liquidy dairy) + (everything else in the recipe). I'll think on how to present this better, thanks for the feedback!
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fathermarz | parent | next
This is what life is about right here
dmitrig01 | parent | next
This is wonderful. Could you add European-style (i.e. non-Greek) yogurt as an option? That's what I most often have on hand.
slopdetector | parent | next
Related somewhat: has anyone read the sci fi book “deep crossings” and if so they remember the discussion of a pancake?
einpoklum | parent | next
That's serious commitment for sure, but - I don't know, the image makes it seems like he low-key burned his pancakes 8-\
JeremyHerrman | parent | next
when I saw those pics I thought: all this effort in the ingredients just to burn them

light blonde pancakes taste the best IMO, but char being carcinogenic seems compelling enough on its own to warrant turning down the heat

gblargg | parent | next
Maybe he needs to optimize the frying part now. Looks burned to me.
stonogo | parent
I agree, this seems like a lot of really excellent work from someone with a completely different pancake baseline than I have. The word 'crispy', in my world, has no business applying to pancakes. That's what bacon is for.
bkazez | root | parent | next
Good to know - I used to have a crispness slider but I removed it since I loved the pancakes at the current crispness. Contrary to the overcontrasted photo, they actually have just a very fine bit of crisp layer. That said, I know that typical American diner pancakes are very soft through, which means people must enjoy them that way too. I can bring back the crispness if other people like their pancakes soft!
fsckboy | root | parent
>The word 'crispy', in my world, has no business applying to pancakes

i won't eat pancakes that are not crispy, or that were but were stacked up steaming in a pile till there were enough to serve to everybody at once: nope.

pancakes should be served individually as soon as they come out of the pan, round robin till nobody wants any more.

mouthfeel is everything.

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aaronbrethorst | parent | next
Neat. Now do it for gluten free flour[1] :)

this is the go-to recipe in my home. You can sub in GF flour (Bob's 1:1) and they're consistently excellent. https://smittenkitchen.com/2011/06/blueberry-yogurt-multigra...

[1] so I can enjoy it!

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bkazez | parent
Thanks, I'm working on this next - stay tuned or join the mailing list (will send a very occasional message about new recipes)!
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l2s0 | parent | next
I have a new favorite website for sure =)))....
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placebo | parent | next
Wow, that was. impressive :-) A few random thoughts I had while reading this, in more or less the order they appeared: 1. The relation/connection between optimization and the hedonistic treadmill 2. That this combination of enthusiasm, curiosity, intelligence, rigor and inventiveness/creativity would be exactly what I would look for in a technical co-founder 3. What other parameters that we don't know about or are in a different dimension than those mentioned here (ingredients, amount, time etc.) would also push the needle? 4. This is why we can have nice things :-)
ian_holt | parent | next
you had me interested at the word "pancake" but I ain't gonna do maths to get it
martythemaniak | parent | next
Protip: you don't need buttermilk, you need milk and acid. 1 cup milk and 1tbsp vinegar do the same job and are already in your kitchen.

Source: Frank Proto's pancakes

https://youtu.be/vkcHmpKxFwg?si=a9GeGHKp0WzTmqPr

jebarker | parent | next
This works with dairy-free milk too. My daughter has a dairy allergy and figuring out we could turn pea milk into pea buttermilk with a tbsp of white vinegar upped her pancake experience significantly.
bkazez | parent | next
For sure - if you check "milk" and "lemon" and select maximum tang, you'll get nice tangy pancakes. I opted away from vinegar due to taste but would be curious to hear if someone tests vinegar vs lemon!
bsder | parent
Sometimes. Note that both your ingredients are liquids, however.

I use buttermilk powder for quite a few recipes so that I can control the liquid content independently of the acid and fat content.

bkazez | root | parent
I feel your pain - dealt with a lot of those calculations so the calculator could avoid powders!
moron4hire | parent | next
> the use of imprecise cup measurements rather than weights

It really does not matter. Both because variation doesn't matter and because weights vs volumes are not going to give a big enough variation to really be detectable.

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chickensong | parent | next
It doesn't matter for small items like salt or baking soda, but you can get pretty different results scooping flour depending on how compressed the flour storage is, and how much the scooping packs down that flour.

There's a reason that every bakery measures by weight. If you value consistency, and recipes should be consistent, you go by weight. You can say it doesn't matter, and in some cases it might not, but the entire baking industry doesn't agree with your statement.

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moron4hire | root | parent
Flour is always the canonical example and I flat out reject it. It's not true. If you think it's true, you've convinced yourself it's true to avoid addressing other problems in process you have.

Here's a thing: a given measure of flour (by any means, volume or weight), a single one kept in a cupboard, not remeasured, is going to have a different weight on different days that have different ambient humidity levels.

The tools of the kitchen are imprecise. The environment is not well controlled. And human taste is robust against micro variations.

jtbayly | root | parent | next
Flour absolutely matters. Some flours are very “thirsty.” Having thirsty flour and compressing it during measurement makes for way too dry cookies, pancakes, etc. We’ve experienced this multiple times in our house.
chickensong | root | parent | next
I started out baking measuring by volume, and it's not like it doesn't work. You can make amazing things basically measuring by handful, pinch, and feel. I think technique and ratio are more important than careful measurements.

Everything else is optimizing for consistency, which might not be important to everyone. If you care about it, measuring by weight is more accurate. The undesirable variations aren't usually taste, but structure and texture, which can be noticeable.

smallerize | root | parent
A given weight of flour will have a different weight on a different day?
moron4hire | root | parent
As it absorbs more or less moisture from the air due to ambient humidity changes, yes. The same reason your wooden furniture will also significantly change in dimensions such that there's no point in being more than 1/16th of an inch precise in your measurements; your design and construction technique is far more important.
gbear605 | parent
It certainly can matter for proper baking (which this recipe seems to be?), though for traditional pancakes I would never bother. But there's a reason that bakeries weigh their ingredients. It's more consistent and allows for different people to get more similar results.
moron4hire | root | parent
The baking industry isn't really measuring by weight, they are measuring by bag, which happens to be delineated in weight.

Look, this is arm chair, YouTube cooking. There is so much variation in recipes that 10% here and there is not going to make or break any recipe.

There is zero ability to make a "universally better" version of a recipe by micro optimizing ingredients. For one thing, you can't easily control temperature and humidity variations on your environment. If people think 2% difference in flour content is going to make or break their bread recipe, then daily humidity variations will definitely have an impact. But it doesn't, really. It's the sort of thing people blame when they don't have good process or good technique.

For another thing, there is no way to evaluate the outcome as "better". Better for you, perhaps, but even then, it's mostly psychosomatic. I've doubled the amount of baking soda in a recipe before and it has had zero impact. I've never measured flour by weight and my cookies come out exactly the same as my wife's when she breaks out the microscale

I've been cooking for a long time. I have family members who refuse to come to Easter Dinner unless I'm the one cooking. I barely measure anything, ever. Even when I'm baking. It matters to have things in the right ballpark, but 5% variations don't matter.

gbear605 | root | parent | next
The difference between weight and volume measurements could easily be a 20% or 30% gap. I’ve measured two of my cups of flour before and they were off by roughly that amount.

Maybe I’m just bad at measuring, but it’s a lot more than 5%.

kbelder | root | parent
It always gets me how the exact proper amount of an ingredient seems to coincidentally round off to an even number of units. You don't often see something that requires 2.07 cups, or 71 grams.

If measurements are rounded off for convenience, a few percentage difference won't be noticeable. People would be better off acquiring a feel for how liquid a batter should be, or how seasonings smell when they're toasted the right amount, etc.

pants2 | parent | next
This is incredible. I wish it had a dairy free option!
elchief | parent | next
here's kenji's recipe (footnote 64 in the article, in case you missed it lol):

https://www.seriouseats.com/light-and-fluffy-pancakes-recipe

analog8374 | parent | next
You need a teflon-coated caliper to measure the batter puddles. And one of those point and click thermometers.
bkazez | parent
Haha, already researched the thermometer but haven't pulled the trigger yet! https://www.absurdlyoptimized.com/cooking/ir-thermometer/
Finnucane | parent | next
I will do yeast-raised waffles but usually don't bother with pancakes. I usually don't have buttermilk so I mix yogurt and milk. I just eyeball it, about 1/4-1/3 yogurt makes a good consistency. While food science is fun, there's no way I'm doing that much work on a Saturday morning.
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