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As a European, I find it quite outrageous to demand a company be sold to the US because it is too successful and valuable to be foreign-held. It is the old-school imperialist school of thought. If you think Bytedance is harming Americans, despite following american law, then amend the rules for social media companies. Or at least be honest enough to say: "The free market is great, but only if we hold all the cards".
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I think it's totally reasonable when it has massive influence over your population and is controlled by a geopolitical adversary.

The EU banned Russia Today (correctly in my opinion) and that was nothing compared to TikTok. Propaganda isn't free speech.

I agree that the TikTok shutdown/sale/whatever-it-is is reasonable. But I also agree with the grandfather post that this standard should be applied to all social media. A company that is under the sway of the CCP is an obvious first step, but just because twitter and facebook are American-owned doesn’t mean that geopolitical adversaries can’t use them to control the population too.
The thing is that those companies are very much under the power of American law, so we can (and have) taken less drastic (and less effective, imo) measures to restrict adversaries from using them for propaganda.
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So, principles don't matter anymore? It's all about whose side you're on? Because I think all those "unfree" countries think the same thing.
These people think that minimum wage "fact checkers" who delete posts that don't agree with their handbook are "freedom", not "censorship". So they think they have principles.
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An an American, I also find it outrageous. In fact, as I understand it, our most fundamental law (the Constitution) clearly guarantees "freedom of speech and freedom of the press" which specifically means that the government may NOT shut down a particular publisher because the government does not like what they say, or who it is that owns them.

Unfortunately, our Supreme Court unanimously disagrees with me about what our Constitution requires.

This constant conflation of speech rules and trade rules is tiresome.

If it was just about content then yes, it'd be unconstitutional.

But security/trade concerns about a geopolitical opponent are not the same thing, have never been the same thing, and it would be crazy to treat them as the same thing.

Not to mention that as a trade issue, China already bans basically all the popular American social media sites, and just a ton of popular US sites in general. Turnabout is entirely fair play and expected when it comes to trade.

> shut down a particular publisher because the government does not like what they say, or who it is that owns them.

I don’t see where that’s in the constitution.

The Constitution does not guarantee any rights to the Chinese government.
However, these rights should be guaranteed to a company operating in the USA and strictly adhering to US law. Of course, if the law is (arbitrarily) changed to make this illegal due to the Chinese government's stake, then it could be forced to shut down, but that would be inconsistent with the constitution.
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TikTok's problem isn't with what they say openly, it's with the amount of invisible control exerted by a foreign government.
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Which they exert through promotion or demotion of speech. In the end it's still a free speech issue in my mind.
Not necessarily. China pursues many objectives when it comes to its national security, such as intimidation and coercion of dissidents or opponents of its regime living abroad. Assuming China's equivalent of the Patriot act lets it treat TikTok user data as an open book, there is a lot for them to learn from it.
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We already do that in the electoral process. Campaign contributions are "speech," while at the same time we ban foreign nationals from such speech (although as far as I know the constitutionality of the issue has not been tested beyond the 9th Circuit.)

https://cdn.ca9.uscourts.gov/datastore/opinions/2019/05/16/1...

The CCP does not have freedom of speech in America and it's not press. China has banned American apps including Google, Facebook, etc for decades at this point btw.
I thought that according law they are distributors, not publishers. That’s how they avoid liability for all the damage they do. They really try to have it both ways
They don't have to shut down. They can simply divest.

We don't allow own telephone system to be foreign owned, and those laws have been around for 90 years, and nobody is crying about free speech over that.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the constitution only applies to American citizens, not corporations, and certainly not foreign citizens.
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Does the constitution apply everywhere?

We take the global world for granted, but it is made up of sovereign states many of them have their own constitution.

The whole thing is moot when you can be banned from platforms for voicing certain speech.

If platforms can do censorship, so can the government.

From a historic standpoint, rights are peacetime luxuries.

The US sees China as an existential threat and TikTok is one of its key weapons. Tiktok is getting banned for the same reason Cuba can't have nukes. It's a national security concern.

I don't endorse it. But I understand it.

America blundered in the 80s by allowing technology transfer to then and still hostile foreign power. It has woken up to its stupidity 45 years too late. But better late than never.

It's not fair.....but love and war Yada yada.

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It has too much influence for China to hold. Let’s be clear if an EU country held Bytedance this would not be an issue.

Really this is about not allowing China to do things and then not retaliating in kind. This is what China does to American companies and so no American company can really survive long term in China. It creates an imbalance and will eventually lead to China’s complete domination in most key industries. America is finally catching on.

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> demand a company be sold to the US because it is too successful and valuable to be foreign-held

This is a reductive and misleading analysis. The US has already prohibited foreign entities from holding broadcast/common carrier licenses, or from owning significant chunks of equity in holders of those licenses [1]. It should be kind of obvious why a country would not want their biggest media providers to be foreign-owned.

You could argue that if the US wants to update the 1934 telecommunications act for the 21st century, it should do so more thoughtfully and comprehensively (I would agree). But the TikTok ban, however poorly written or haphazardly targeted, is fairly in line with a legal doctrine that has been commonly known and accepted for 90 years.

[1]: https://www.fcc.gov/general/foreign-ownership-rules-and-poli...

> The US has already prohibited foreign entities from holding broadcast/common carrier licenses, or from owning significant chunks of equity in holders of those licenses

But you don't need a license to put something on the internet. And Americans don't want everything on the Internet to be regulated and censored the way TV and radio are.

It IS wrong for them to determine what we can and can't be influenced by. By saying bad countries "influencing" us is bad for democracy, they are saying democracy isn't really up to us, the voters, it's up to them. And I'll never accept that.

> But you don't need a license to put something on the internet. And Americans don't want everything on the Internet to be regulated and censored the way TV and radio are.

Whether you _should_ need a license to distribute a media app in the US under certain conditions, and whether “Americans” (which ones?) really do want no limits on who controls their media, is the correct debate to be having. The person I was responding to believed the issue to be “US demands local ownership of TikTok just because it's successful and valuable” which is clearly wrong.

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When China does it, it's authoritarian. But when the USA does it, it is to protect our freedoms. It's totally different! /s
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This is a great argument for the rest of us banning nearly all US social media tech from our countries. Frankly I'd support it given the new US government.
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> obvious why a country would not want their biggest media providers to be foreign-owned.

And yet many countries have no objection with letting their citizens use US FAANG services?

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China bans them. Europe, Canada and Australia are constantly trying to regulate the media parts of the business. If they had the capacity to built an alternative (like china) a ban or forced divestiture doesn’t seem that out there.
Every country on earth "has the capacity" to build alternative social networks. They just don't because the need hasn't become obvious enough yet.
I would not be surprised if governments pushing back against all foreign social media is a major theme of the decade. America is basically saying to the world right now foreign social media companies are a major risk. The global reach of America's social media companies could be coming to an end.
They’re only saying this specific one is and how long did it take for that to pass through legislature and courts?

It’s not always a slippery slope. And China's use of soft power via strict governmental control of its corporations isn’t an imaginary boogeyman.

No, they set up a framework where any other such case can be easily included in the ban. The executive order doesn't even name TikTok, except when referring to now-revoked previous things it revoked.

> (d) The Secretary of Commerce shall evaluate on a continuing basis trans- actions involving connected software applications that may pose an undue risk of sabotage or subversion of the design, integrity, manufacturing, produc- tion, distribution, installation, operation, or maintenance of information and communications technology or services in the United States; pose an undue risk of catastrophic effects on the security or resiliency of the critical infra- structure or digital economy of the United States; or otherwise pose an unacceptable risk to the national security of the United States or the security and safety of United States persons. Based on the evaluation, the Secretary of Commerce shall take appropriate action in accordance with Executive Order 13873 and its implementing regulations.

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Twitter/X had a hard time in Brazil recently and was temporarily banned. Meta is now feeling more intense pushback from Brazil's judiciary power.
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It’s important to note that media companies in China are required to have a Chinese partner who holds a majority stake, typically 51% or more.
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they didn't demand it be sold to the US. they just said it can't be owned by china, NK, Russia, Iran. a European company could buy it and everyone could keep using it.
> they didn't demand it be sold to the US. they just said it can't be owned by china, NK, Russia, Iran.

On that note, I wonder if the same approach should apply to Elon Musk's Twitter takeover.

It would be a no-op.

"Twitter cannot be Chinese (or NK etc) owned."

OK, done.

> because it is too successful and valuable to be foreign-held

That is not the reason at all. I highly doubt if it was made in Europe, it would be banned.

China would never allow a TikTok equivalent to operate in China, which is smart. We should do the same.

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> too successful and valuable to be foreign-held

That’s a thoroughly disingenuous spin on the reasoning.

There is no movement to prevent foreign companies from having popular apps in general. The law is narrowly targeted. TikTok could continue to be foreign-held as long as they separated from the government of a specific foreign country.

I’m amazed at how many commenters are twisting themselves into pretzels to try to make this some generic imperialist move or use whataboutism to downplay the reasoning behind this move.

A decade ago it was common knowledge on the internet that China heavily controlled and shaped internet discourse within their reach, to push government agendas in an extreme way. There is no parallel to their cultural control in the US. Did everyone suddenly forget this, or are they just ignoring it for the sake of argument?

I found your angle very interesting. I'm baffled by the same thing. Is it that a new generation (that is now < 30) grew up without realising this? I wonder what is the age of average commenter here.
After reading more comments, I think this comment section is just full of people who only read the headlines and then assume the rest, rather than try to read the articles or understand what’s going on.

Whether you agree with the move or not, the storylines being pushed in hundreds of comments here don’t even reflect the reality of the law, let alone the reasoning behind it.

It’s also ironic to read all of the commenters that don’t realize that China already controls social media use within their own country to a degree far more strict than this. The amount of control that China exerts over everything from Facebook to Google within their country was a well known topic for years online. Here on HN people were disgusted that FB and others were giving in to government censorship in those countries. Now it all seems to be forgotten? It’s weird to me to see all of the narratives in this comment section being built on top of imagined realities with no regard for how other countries have been operating for decades.

Forget about reading articles even... the supreme court decision itself is not long, is written in understandable language, and breaks down point by point the things that they had to consider, why they had to consider them, and the outcome of that consideration.
Also, Beijing seems happy to help the drug cartels that sell into the US make fentanyl and help them launder their profits.
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This is what they have said, in the most honest way of all — action!
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The demand is literally stated to American or allies company. So this is not true. But that’s what national interest protection looks like.

Look at Germany and Europe in general , they pay money to arm their aggressive neighbor, still not able to shield themselves from China. And asking US to protect Europe .

I don’t think Europe , giving the situation is in position to suggest about national interest protection. It’s like drug addict talk about healthy lifestyle

> [...] And asking US to protect Europe

To protect Europe from who...

Let's look at where we are with cold eyes (I'm European). Russian direct energy supplies to the EU have been cut, raising energy costs, all EU industries are affected, making it more difficult to compete with China and the US. Energy, which now comes also in part through expensive ships from the US, whom -surprise- is now able to threat to cut it off, increasing influence over EU politics, energy that it is now also paid with dollar currency, at the same time EU economic resources -that should be used for the internal development- are being asked to be diverged to buy US weapons through NATO.

So I would suggest to avoid the "US saving heroes" discourse. The reality sounds more like the US elite has benefited from the war (a big industry for them), so much that should be included within the suspicious list.

What pockets planned and backed up the Maidan rise that removed the Kremlin's puppet from power? Who aimed and intended such country to join NATO along years before this event?

Because can be guessed this aimed the psychopathic Putin to increase the violence of his mafia things, maybe someones expected this violence in invasion form, or another form that would drag Europe into the same position it is in now.

> Still not able to shield themselves from China

It would be interesting to read how one country has protected itself from China's dumping, among other things, considering the massive industrial companies and seaports the Chinese government already bought around the world, including the US.

> Russian direct energy supplies to the EU have been cut, raising energy costs

So the EU should have been more careful not to be too dependent on Russia? Maybe Germany should have avoided shutting down their nuclear reactors.

The idea that US should cut of our allies in Europe is stupid and insane but at the same time Europe made a lot of mistakes that it should learn from

> What pockets planned and backed up the Maidan rise that removed the Kremlin's puppet from power? Who aimed and intended such country to join NATO along years before this event?

No "one" planned it. It was a spontaneous grassroots movement that blew up when the authoritarian president tried to violently crack down on it.

https://snyder.substack.com/p/ukraines-maidan-revolution

> The consolation prize Yanukovych dangled before a liberal intelligentsia that hated him was the distant prospect of European integration. For a young generation in particular, “Europe” was the object of the greatest desire. In November 2013 Ukraine was expected to sign a long-anticipated association agreement with the European Union. At the eleventh hour, on 21 November 2013, Yanukovych refused.

> The disappointment was especially crushing for students, who felt as if their future had vanished; Europe would be closed to them. That evening a thirty-two-year-old Ukrainian journalist from Kabul named Mustafa Nayyem wrote in Russian on his Facebook page: “Come on, let’s get serious. Who is ready to go out to the Maidan by midnight tonight? ‘Likes’ don’t count.”

> That night Ukrainians—overwhelming students—came to the Maidan—and stayed. They held hands and shouted, “Ukraine is Europe!” At 4 am on 30 November 2013 Yanukovych sent his riot police to the Maidan to beat the students. The violence against peaceful protestors was a shock. Yanukovych, it seems, was counting on the shock to shake parents into pulling their kids off the streets. That was when something remarkable happened: instead of pulling their kids off the streets, the parents joined them there. It was a historic Aufhebung of Oedipal rebellion. Now there were close to a million people on the streets of Kyiv, and they were shouting, “We will not permit you to beat our children!”

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It's ridiculous. Who made their now so called adversary? Who shifted production to them?
I don’t think it really matters. The fact is there is now a semi-adversarial relationship.
It's not just broadcasting of info, it's having information on your location, contacts, comments, biometric data, etc. It's the reason why the military banned it first. It can definitely be a national security threat.
They don't need their own app for that. American companies are more than happy to sell all of that to the highest bidder.
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Eh-- Interjecting one's own opinion arguably amounts to intellectual imperialism.

Imperialism is a part of life-- whether it's mold in a petri dish, prides of lions or chimpanzees raiding neighbors.

We live in the wild where strength conquers. It's just that we forget that when we're insulated from reality by convenience, comfort, concrete, and naivete.

No one should be ashamed for conquering or for exercising their own strength to their own benefit. Only those unable to do so are the ones to complain. And the complaints are futile-- Resource Competition is a fact of life and it is not going away.

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