Hacker News new | past | comments | ask | show | jobs | submit
snickerbockers | on: Trump wins presidency for second time
I'm always amazed by how many people consider it a failure of democracy for the candidate they voted for to lose.
NotMichaelBay | parent | next
The candidate who was just voted into power is a convicted felon awaiting sentencing and also awaiting 2(?) other criminal trials which are now probably going to just disappear. It's objectively a failure of democracy.
loading story #42061170
loading story #42066766
simonask | parent | next
It's not that she lost, it's that somebody who seems to oppose democracy won.
tirant | root | parent
As a non-American, how does Donald Trump seem to oppose democracy?

That is the message continuously published here by generalist German newspapers, but I cannot find any substance behind it.

ttyprintk | root | parent | next
He has said all these things:

- the Constitution needs suspending

- he needs extrajudicial purges

- vote counting shall be stopped at a particular time. Officials in charge of the mechanics of democracy need to be pressured explicitly about this.

- the peaceful transition of power needs to be interrupted

- expectations held together by norms hold no value. The very tradition of democracy is optional.

It might be irrational to spend effort voting —engaging in democracy— to elevate someone so skeptical of it. And your newspaper and even in this thread people are extremely polite about those doing so.

AnimalMuppet | root | parent
- Media that criticizes him should lose their broadcast licenses (ABC, CBS) or shut down (Google).

- The Federal Reserve should do what he says rather than be independent.

- Military generals should be as obedient to him as German generals were to Hitler.

simonask | root | parent | next
I'm also not American, but how can this not be obvious to you? Start with the January 6 coup attempt.

Here's a list, though: https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2020/10/29/trump-dem...

wholinator2 | root | parent
Where's the chart? I can only see the first paragraph
loading story #42066904
loading story #42070559
bluesnews | root | parent | next
He generates doubt around the election result "if I lost, it is because of fraud" and provoked a group of people to attempt the overturn the previous election. Plus more subtle things like election rule changes that reduce democracy in the background.
ordu | root | parent | next
I personally came to this opinion when he declared previous elections rigged without any evidence. The election institute and its fairness is a cornerstone myth of a democracy, you cannot destroy it without ruining the democracy. If the election institute is corrupted there is no way to have a legitimate president. You can have only tyrants and dictators after that. It means that you are not anti-democratic you can oppose the election institute only if you know it is corrupt. But Trump didn't know, I'm sure he knew that the elections were not rigged, and yet he attacked the elections.

I was not sure, because I had a hypothesis that Trump is just stupid and do not understand what he is doing. But before the current elections he talked a lot how he is going to abuse power to persecute political opponents, or just any opponents, if we believe his words, he is going to persecute everyone he doesn't like.

| root | parent | next
{"deleted":true,"id":42061259,"parent":42060886,"time":1730896457,"type":"comment"}
Bluescreenbuddy | root | parent
[flagged]
tirant | root | parent
That is exactly what I am doing, looking harder by asking people around.

Your attitude es not helpful.

loading story #42065804
Xeamek | parent
You know that Hitler was literally voted into power, right?

I am NOT saying Trump is literally Hitler, but the idea that democratic vote can't have un-democratic outcome in the long run is simply false. It can, and history showed us that more then once

snickerbockers | root | parent | next
That's the problem with this statement: Trump is not Hitler and any hypothetical "undemocratic outcomes" aren't apparent in the extreme short term. He hasn't run on a platform of eliminating democracy and there isn't any indication at this point that he will.
jamincan | root | parent | next
I've not been as immersed in the presidential race, but hasn't he explicitly said he wants to be a dictator, this is the last vote you will need, we should stop so and so from voting and so on? Like, right out of his mouth? How is that not an undemocratic platform?
snickerbockers | root | parent
> he wants to be a dictator

The full quote was that he was going to be a dictator but only on the first day. It's probably one of the dumbest things he's ever said, but the fact that he put a limit on his own supposed dictatorship contradicts him being a dictator. At any rate, while I'm not a fan of what he said, he definitely did not preclude the continuation of American democracy even if interpreted in the most literal possible way.

> this is the last vote you will need

He said that you [the people at his rally] aren't going to need to vote anymore because hes going to accomplish all his goals this time. Not that there won't be a vote or that his supporters won't be allowed to vote. They definitely won't be allowed to vote for him since he'll be at up against the term limit.

> we should stop so and so from voting and so on

This one I've never even heard before outside of him claiming that his opponents want to let non citizens vote

loading story #42060976
onlyrealcuzzo | root | parent | next
He ran on a platform that he won the 2020 election, and it was stolen.

How is that not anti-democratic?

logicchains | root | parent | next
If he and his supporters genuinely believe that, it's an extremely democratic position.
loading story #42062669
ImJamal | root | parent
You are going with the assumption that the election wasn't stolen. If you are correct then Trumo would be taking an anti-democratic position. If the people's will was genuinely to elect him and the election was actually stolen then he would be taking the democratic position.
loading story #42062713
wyatt_dolores | root | parent | next
He has literally said "Vote for me, and you'll never have to vote again."
Izkata | root | parent
That's out of context. He was trying to reach people who just don't vote in general, telling them they only needed to bother this one time and he'll fix their problems (costs, economy, etc) so well they can go back to not bothering to vote.
loading story #42064953
BadHumans | root | parent | next
He absolutely said vote for me and you'll never have to vote again because we'll have it fixed. How is that not running on eliminating democracy?
Sabinus | root | parent | next
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trump_fake_electors_plot

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/January_6_United_States_Capito...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attempts_to_overturn_the_2020_...

This stuff was not merely spicy words, it was dangerous. Democracy runs on norms and good people, and is precious and hard won. Trump being in power is a risk.

ks2048 | root | parent | next
He said many times very explicitly he will be a dictator on day one. We'll find out in a few months what the means exactly. I honestly don't know.
FractalHQ | root | parent | next
What about when he said he wanted to be dictator so people wouldn’t have to vote anymore? And when he made himself above the law with MAGA court justices? Or talked about a firing squad for his opponents and opening fire on peaceful protestors? Or when he attempted a violent coup on the White House? Or when he praised Hitler and asked for generals like Hitlers that will do anything he says without question? Or when he praised Putin, Kim Jun Un, and other the dictators of the world?
dsmithn | root | parent | next
“Except for day one”
formerly_proven | root | parent | next
> hasn't run on a platform of eliminating democracy

Didn't he literally say in his victory speech that he's now elected the 47th president, as he also was the 46th?

In the story Trump tells, he literally already is a third-term president.

dazilcher | root | parent
He did not say that [1]. I can't decide whether people keep misrepresenting his statements intentionally, or there's some psychological process in play that prevents them from parsing his speech. He is a terrible communicator after all.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WI9fbbQ-aTo&t=96s

loading story #42068578
kristiandupont | root | parent
He literally tried to overthrow the election 4 years ago. I mean, he wasn't exactly being subtle about it!
Jensson | root | parent
But in the end he didn't end Democracy, he let the democratic procedures take place, a fascist wouldn't do that.

> He literally tried to overthrow the election 4 years ago

Not openly, the people who went to the white house weren't under Trumps command. He argued against the election result using the proper tools of the democracy, you are allowed to do that.

I'm not sure why worry now when we already know he handed over the power once. Maybe it wasn't willingly but he will be forced to step down in 4 years as well.

loading story #42060709
loading story #42060534
loading story #42060500
loading story #42061219
Clubber | root | parent
>You know that Hitler was literally voted into power, right?

He was not. This is a popular misconception.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler%27s_rise_to_power

AshamedCaptain | root | parent
What do you call being the majority party, winning referendums, etc?

Certainly there is a lot of voter intimidation, control of the press, etc. behind it, but I think that's precisely what is being debated here.

loading story #42060777