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Ask HN: Why is Pave legal?

1098nowyoudont | | 495 | HN
atrettel | parent | next
I have never heard of Pave before, but this just sounds like yet another copy of Equifax's "The Work Number" [1]. Basically, HR at many companies gives your salary and employment history data to Equifax, who then sells access to the information to certain parties with supposed need to access it, including potential and current employers and creditors. This report is likely one of the most invasive consumer files out there for many people.

I cannot comment on the legality of this kind of data sharing, but as I and others have pointed out, it has existed for a while. I do agree that it is concerning. You can freeze your Equifax The Work Number report at least, just like other credit reports.

[1] https://theworknumber.com/

wing-_-nuts | parent | next
I downloaded a personal report from the work number website and found to my horror that my employer was reporting every. single. paystub. gross and net, to equifax.

That felt like a huge breach of privacy. Given that equifax had already proven incompetent at keeping my data secure, I immediately sent HR a request to stop sending my supposedly 'confidential' pay info. They politely told me to kick rocks, so I went on TWN's website and froze that report so no one would be able to request it, and it will be a cold day in hell before I thaw it.

iav | root | parent | next
I am an investor in equifax. Let me clear up a misconception on where the data comes from. Half the data comes from large enterprise customers, who “sell” the data in exchange for Equifax doing I-9 verification for free. The other half comes from 39 payroll companies. Every single payroll company except for Rippling and Gusto sell paystub data to Euifax. (Rippling will start next year). Those are exclusive revenue share deals. You cannot be a competitive payroll provider without the revenue share from Equifax. So before you blame your employer, they might not be selling it directly and even if they opted out, your payroll company will sell it anyway.
Arelius | root | parent | next
Do you have a sense of why, according to you Gusto will remain the only company that doesn't sell payroll data to Equifax?
dawnerd | root | parent | next
Seems like something gusto can turn into a marketing point. Surely there’s a desire for a privacy respecting payroll/hr platform.
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nullish | root | parent | next
This may not be correct. My current company uses Gusto for payroll. Pulling my data, I see everything. I am confirming with Gusto support its sourced from them.
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jnwatson | root | parent
Gusto is still pre-revenue?
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maxwell | root | parent | next
Sounds like Gusto is the only acceptable option then. Thanks for the info!
lxgr | root | parent | next
> even if they opted out, your payroll company will sell it anyway

Surely that can't be legal?

archon810 | root | parent | next
As a Gusto admin for my company and user for another (well, my wife is the user), I am happy with our choice of payroll provider.
marssaxman | root | parent | next
That's good to know. The company I work for currently uses Rippling; I will mention this upcoming change and suggest that we should consider switching to Gusto.
Libcat99 | root | parent | next
I hate the argument of "you cannot be a competitive company without being a scumbag."

It's a bad argument through and through.

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hammock | root | parent | next
Can I opt out thru the payroll company?
flatpepsi17 | root | parent
No, but you can opt out at the Aggregator level. Currently, The Work Number is the largest salary aggregator, you may find this link, helpful:

https://employees.theworknumber.com/employee-data-freeze

zo1 | root | parent | next
Maybe I'm missing something... If the data doesn't come from the employer, then how does the "payroll" company get it?
jacobr1 | root | parent
It is indirect instead. The employer tells the payroll company: pay employee $x (and handle deductions, retirement contributes etc ...) The payroll company then has this data and can resell it. I would expect the contract the employer has with the payroll company explicitly allows for the data sharing.
dsr_ | root | parent
You make an excellent argument here for tight regulation of the industry.
Kon-Peki | root | parent
… and the usage?

Most highly-paid people have no idea how much privilege this affords them.

You wonder why so many businesses are nice to you? It’s because they’ve already looked you up and know you’ve got a high income and are a millionaire.

Write a personal check for your next automobile? Sure thing, you can drive it off the lot a few minutes later. They won’t even bother cashing the check for a week or two.

Try doing something like that as an hourly worker, even if you’ve got the money in the bank.

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SoftTalker | root | parent | next
Don't ever work in the public sector then. Your salary is public record, open to anyone who is curious enough to look.
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kevin_thibedeau | root | parent | next
22 states currently have salary history bans. You can save the trouble of jumping through Equifax's hoops if you have that protection.
uriah | root | parent | next
Many if not most companies outsource employment verification to The Work Number. When you get a new job, a frozen report will complicate your background check.

They don't give out salary info in employment checks though. AFAIK they require your explicit permission except for government agencies who use it to verify your eligibility for benefits. I would be surprised if they are not selling aggregate salary data though

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Nextgrid | root | parent | next
> They politely told me to kick rocks

The only way this stops is when people return the favor (on the spot, without a notice period).

consultSKI | root | parent | next
Yep. Equifax got hacked a few years ago and the Government let them use ITS credit monitoring tool for those affected instead of reaching into its own pockets to pay for a third-party solution.

#sad #speakingOfMonopolies

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jnwatson | parent | next
I froze the report, and I also told my employer not to report anything to Equifax (which luckily my employer allows).

This made getting approved for a mortgage more difficult. These days, loan officers just expect to be able to hit a button and get all your info.

We're losing the privacy battle.

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idbehold | parent | next
The freeze is mostly ineffective for when you actually want it to work. From what I remember (even for the credit freezes) is that if you provide written consent to, say, a background check, then that overrides your freeze. So if you're applying for a job (basically the major instance where you'd want your salary information private) they're going to ask for your consent to do a background check and bingo they'll know how much money you make.

IMO this type of information should be illegal to sell or request.

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abhisharma2 | parent | next
In case folks want to quickly know how to start a freeze, heres the info from the website:

To communicate a freeze request, send an email to the address below requesting a Freeze Placement Form: TWNFreeze@equifax.com

Panini_Jones | parent | next
As a datapoint for how I've seen this used in the real world, I've spoken to startups who will defer to Pave regarding how much they'll offer to pay. The startup I spoke to said 'We pay you the 85th percentile for your YOE and role based on Pave data'.
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briffle | parent | next
I just signed up to see what they have on me.

I love that they have ALL my personal info, but I can't create an account with a password longer than 16 characters.. Why the heck are they not storing the hash?

Great security.

blackeyeblitzar | parent | next
Pave is a company that has been snapping up other existing companies that performed this kind of aggregation of compensation data. Basically companies look at this benchmarking data to figure out what they should pay for different jobs and levels. Just some extent companies genuinely need this kind of data to figure out what to do. But I also think it breaks supply and demand. Companies are not discovering price of labor but just using each other’s signals to decide what to pay collectively

https://www.pave.com/blog-posts/announcing-paves-series-c-an...

no_wizard | parent | next
These services feel not dissimilar to the Realpagr case that is ongoing now with rent price fixing.

How does this ultimately not end up having a depressing impact on salaries?

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pogue | parent | next
This thread got pretty off track. But, if I were to opt out of this database and went looking for a job, would potential employers not be able to see specific history about me (or at least not from Equifax)?
486sx33 | parent | next
“I’m an employee looking for my data”. Links to https://employees.theworknumber.com/

Spits out 403 error forbidden

Gosh, that’s awful.

arwhatever | parent
If one is required to sign an agreement to a background check, could this supersede one’s freezing of one’s Work Number?
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yonran | parent | next
The FTC Guidelines for Collaborations Among Competitors https://www.ftc.gov/sites/default/files/attachments/dealings... says it’s illegal to share “competitively sensitive variables”, not just any data. Some forms of data sharing such as industry averages may not be illegal, but more detailed data such as numbers of applicants or price elasticity that enable the companies to act together as if they were a monopoly probably are. RealPage crossed the line by sharing an optimization algorithm and encouraging collective action. I’m not sure what Pave does.
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Fokamul | parent | next
Lol try this here in EU.
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