Hacker News new | past | comments | ask | show | jobs | submit

FTC Pushed to Crack Down on Companies That Ruin Hardware via Software Updates

https://www.techdirt.com/2024/09/09/ftc-pushed-to-crack-down-on-companies-that-ruin-hardware-via-software-updates-or-annoying-paywalls/
They need to crack down on companies that ruin hardware (or will one day ruin hardware) when they shut off their last cloud server.

There's no excuse for an appliance to brick itself or lose functionality just because of the manufacturer's remote action. When I buy a device, I don't want a perpetual, tethered relationship with the manufacturer in order to work the device. I don't want it to ask the manufacturer for permission to run every day. I don't want it to be dependent on the manufacturer to keep it alive. I don't want to create an account. I don't want to log in to the manufacturer's servers. I don't want them to know my IP address or my home address. Leave me alone, I'm just not that into you!

A hardware device should work on day 10,000 just as it worked on day 1. If you as a company can't do that, you should not be able to sell the device (EDIT: OR at least you should be required to prominently mark the devices as "dependent on the manufacturer's servers")

Couldn't agree more.

A recent example - you buy a $1600 virtual reality headset (HP G2, specifically). A couple of years later the manufacturer drops support and Microsoft disables WMR capabilities.

This bricks a perfectly functional, expensive, device.

Personally, I feel the "right to repair" should extend to software. Why am I not allowed to revive an old mobile phone with a new OS version? Why am I not allowed to revive an old device by modernizing its hardware driver? Why can I not bring an old video game back to life?

Yes source code is IP - but maybe an expiration system similar to pharmaceuticals should apply where, for instance, a regulator compels a companies to release the sources of their drivers & services when a product or service is no longer officially supported.

loading story #41498415
loading story #41497301
loading story #41498753
loading story #41497905
loading story #41497531
loading story #41500708
loading story #41500912
loading story #41531138
loading story #41499207
loading story #41510107
> OR at least you should be required to prominently mark the devices as "dependent on the manufacturer's servers"

Right next to the prominent label about causing cancer in the state of California, presumably.

I feel a notice wouldn't work here because the average consumer wouldn't understand the implications of depending on the manufacturer's servers or what it even means, plus every smart doorbell or whatever would just include it so it's not like it'd affect any consumer's choice

loading story #41496487
loading story #41503145
And such dependency should only be permitted if there is some essential function the server is providing. Unfortunately, for a lot of devices that's inherently required to get through the firewall--for example, my garage door opener. Since it's not accessible from the internet the app has to communicate with the company server, the same server the opener opened a connection to to listen for commands.

There's also the grey area of remote kill. It should be required to be disclosed up front and the company should be required to put up a deposit with the FTC for a simple you-can-live server. If the company shuts down the FTC's copy is spun up and anything that hasn't been killed continues to operate.

loading story #41496785
I think the opposite side of this coin is that the company should clearly define the minimum lifetime of the product and it support, including what services they will provide upon its sunset (such as a partial refund and disposal if the product folds before that date). I want to make an informed decision, and like you I would shop for another product beyond this crap we subscribe to.
loading story #41498871
loading story #41497993
loading story #41497767
loading story #41497003
It shouldn't really matter whether a company discontinues their service or not, because the right way to address this trend is through antitrust enforcement against the bundling of device products with software service products. These two things should be distinct product offerings with independent markets, and devices should be straightforwardly configurable as to which specific servers/services to use (with openly documented protocols, of course).
They should not be legally allowed to use the word "buy". They're actually renting out their products.
loading story #41505400
>you should be required to prominently mark the devices as "dependent on the manufacturer's servers")

Actually it's "we spy on you and reserve the right to brick your device at any time", which pretty much every EULA already covers ...

loading story #41504387
Don't stop at hardware. If the software runs locally but connects to a server for some non-essential or non-functional feature, it should continue working after they shut that server down.
loading story #41501371
"dependent on the manufacturer's servers" should also require that it let my install my own certs so I can MITM that connection and see what it's saying to the manufacturer's servers.
Alternatively we could require companies open-source the server hardware if they choose to shut down their for-profit offering.

Another option is to require companies go the Minecraft route where the "server" portion is always free to download and run but you need the paid client to actually connect to the servers to play the game.

So then the new-business model is escrow for ensuring continuity of server-based services ?
Products configured this way are a combination of a "logic bomb" [0] and a "dead man's handle" [1]. Together they form a very nasty combo.

Suicide bombers like release-to-make switches, so if you shoot them they at least complete part of their mission.

Companies that create self-destructing products are thinking like this. They are binding their survival to that of their customers as human shields and saying "we'll take you with us".

It's very disturbing psychology and having laws that allow companies to do it, even by hiding behind supposed technical ignorance, is a problem.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logic_bomb

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_man's_switch

The way it's sold, you buy all those services from the vendor, and need their device to get access. So either the device should be replacable at low or no cost, or you should be able to switch vendor.
> When I buy a device, I don't want a perpetual, tethered relationship with the manufacturer in order to work the device.

Yes, but all the manufacturers want you in that relationship with them, and the technology of "internet" has finally given them that ability.

It's just a reminder that capitalism doesn't produce the best goods for consumers, it only produces the ones that are just not shitty enough that people keep buying them.

No matter how good a product is, the market will inevitably enshittify it to optimally conform to market incentives.

I mean, I fully agree, but how would any jurisdiction even enforce this? If the manufacturer goes out of business, their cloud service will be shut down 90% of the time (exception is if some entity buys the bankrupt company to restructure it). No one has any incentive to keep a service running that makes no money.

And I believe (not totally sure though) that IP is always part of the bankruptcy assets so probably insolvent companies are not even allowed to just open-source their stuff and allow configuration of the backend so users could set up community-servers and keep things running.

Completely different are cases where companies continue to live but lock features behind new paywalls like Happiest Baby with their Snoo bassinet, invent fees to hinder re-sale like Peloton or cripple working hardware like Sonos did.

Those make me unreasonably mad, not just because I already have too many subscriptions for things that improve my QoL but add up, but also because I do care about my CO2 and environmental footprint. I do not want to trash working devices just because they are now 2 years old. Companies should untether them if they think further cloud support is no longer viable and at the very least should support them for 7-10y.

loading story #41512185
loading story #41501006
>When I buy a device, I don't want a perpetual, tethered relationship with the manufacturer in order to work the device.

Then don't buy that device. I know this will be unpopular but there is an entitlement here. I want X, X comes with insane restrictions, instead of sticking to my principles I will buy X then complain about the restrictions. I agree it shouldn't happen, but I also don't buy anything that allows that to happen to me.

Many devices can absolutely be built in a way that they do not require a dumb remote server to work, but they're built that way anyways because the manufacturer is rent seeking. It can be damn near impossible to find equivalent devices that don't do that. It is absolutely right to get one and complain about absurd remote links that shouldn't be there in the first place.
loading story #41505138
loading story #41512241
loading story #41501406
loading story #41501120
loading story #41494837
loading story #41493547
loading story #41496864
loading story #41493511
loading story #41495935
loading story #41493239
loading story #41493744
loading story #41493288
loading story #41493892
loading story #41494202
loading story #41496061
loading story #41496464
loading story #41495954
There's a lot of stuff like this that should be very illegal and include excessive fines and jail time to stop it from happening. Buying something and then having the manufacturer take features away is a major bait and switch in the best case. It's fraud. Turning off cloud servers and abandoning hardware leaving it useless when it could be made useful if source code was released should be just as illegal. They need to start cracking down on these horrid business practices.
loading story #41493103
loading story #41492607
loading story #41497497
loading story #41496208
loading story #41497126
loading story #41496608
loading story #41494842
loading story #41495402
loading story #41494637
loading story #41496298
loading story #41494889
loading story #41493532
loading story #41495282
loading story #41496788
loading story #41493768
loading story #41499722
loading story #41495609
loading story #41501238
loading story #41503169
loading story #41494925
loading story #41497803