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For spices and tea it really makes sense to buy organic (not that there are no fraudsters but still).
It also makes sense for anything coming out of third world countries, pesticides kill and harm lots of farmers there. https://www.publiceye.ch/en/topics/pesticides/pesticide-gian...
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People still use tea bags even though they're a top source of microplastics.
People don't even know. I had long assumed that it was only the obvious nylon pyramid tea bags that were plastic, and only recently discovered it's _all_ tea bags.
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People still use tea bags even though what they contain is a byproduct of tea production and barely counts as tea.
To me, sounds like it's a great thing that we waste less agricultural output and have goods available at different price points.
Then where does the real stuff go? The arabs, indians?? Tea bags are the mass market in Europe for example. Hardly anyone uses tea leaves (are they different?).

I know an Iranian in the Netherlands who says the tea there is mostly coloring.

India, China and Japan are the largest markets for quality whole leaf tea. Tea bags contain fannings and dust, the lowest quality byproducts of tea production. Try a single estate TGFOP and you’ll never want to drink tea from a bag again.

Chinese tea is again a whole different world from Indian tea, and has a much broader spectrum of complexity. You could spend a lifetime learning about Chinese tea.

My knowledge of this from a long time ago and narrow, but I can give you a rough picture.

Different countries do buy different types and qualities of tea. The US is big market for low quality (dust, stalks) tea for tea bags.

Countries that like strong sweet tea with lots of milk buy tea that is low grown (i.e. lower elevations) and processed using the "cut, torn curled" process rather than the older "orthodox" process. High grown (on mountains) tea is better for those who drink it without milk.

Leaves do tend to be higher quality and they have grades reflecting the size of the pieces. There is a standard system which is marked on some types of tea.

It is usual to pluck two leaves and a bud. Plucking more would add a lot of stalk which lower quality. Plucking or using just a bud produces a very delicate flavour (sivlertips). High grown silvertips is good with

Most tea is blended so will contain a mix of different things.

Most tea bags aren't trying to be tea as in camellia sinensis but rather herbal infusions. Nothing wrong with that.
Organic is just green washing, it doesn’t mean no chemicals. Plenty of organic products contain toxic chemicals and heavy metals. Organic oats have been found to contain glyphosate. Organic spices have been found to contain heavy metals.
Organic means that no non-organic pesticides have been used in production. There are still organic ones available, which are less dangerous. Especially to the farmers who are the first ones to get exposed to the poisons we spread on the fields.
> There are still organic ones available, which are less dangerous.

You’re gunna want to look at the later half of that.

care to cite any decent research proving you point?

there's an extensive body of research on synthetics having no effect on human health, from goverment funded, private and independent research... if you access your country's official institution you'll see there's plenty of synthetics allowed in organic agriculture just because they mimic perfectly "organic" substances

interesting point too, is the lack of any extensive meta-analysis/studies on organic pesticide impact on health and plus the fact organic farm is rather poor (produce less than 2% of the global food) and usually if not always lack good machinery to spread pesticides on the recommended quantities science points out (which organic agriculture also has less literature on that too)

Not all synthetics are dangerous, many are. Many are banned, with the list growing each year: https://www.npic.orst.edu/reg/restricted.html

Why were they allowed in the first place, if "research" was enough? Science is not definitive, and what we believe to be an approximation of the truth today way be discovered to be totally wrong tomorrow. You are confusing science and religion.

Would you defend, for instance, that DDT and other organochlorine poisons are safe? They were the darling of scientists and agrobiz companies for a long time, until we discovered well that they were dangerous.

Of course, if we find a strict equivalent to a biopesticide that happens to be synthetical, it would be a good substitute. But most synthetic pesticides are not like this, unfortunately.

And what you say about the lack of studies regarding organic farming is a plain lie, it takes 30 seconds on google scholar to find it:

- Farmers in organic farms are less exposed to health effects of synthetic pesticides: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S03784...

- Organic farming improve soils and yields: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1658077X2...

- Review on organic food quality and health effects: https://link.springer.com/content/pdf/10.1186/s12940-017-031...

> Not all synthetics are dangerous, many are. Many are banned, with the list growing each year: https://www.npic.orst.edu/reg/restricted.html

as many synthetic are developed... last time i was making an inventory of an exclusive corn and soybean high tech farm (selling on the hundreds millions USD) there was at least 45 different pesticides... some were distributed in a quantity of 10 mililiters! per hectare with machine with proper air filter at the cabine of the tractor never seen by the organic movement, which by the way, considering their ~ 30% increase in land, fertilizers and pesticides needs and their production totalling less than 2% of all the global food, feels quite a stretch to read author's conclusion of your last study...

your 2° cited study shows improvement on soil quality by variety/rotation, what it has to do with GMO technology? one literally can plant varied stuff while using synthetic pesticides... take a look on most health studies done in organics and health not controlling for life style factors, nor any major study even found dangerous levels of pesticides in food. don't get me wrong, there are niche cases were organic crops just make sense but when you start dismissing GMO technology for a 8 billion and growing world, which in decades will move out of the rural ambient (rural flight is an on going thing, literally no one wants to work in farms, much less in organic ones were the workload is much bigger, if not borderline on slavery (trust me, i did some WWOOF)), feels pure ignorancy out of greenwashing or small studies compared to what we rolled on science the past 30 years of GMO technology

https://biofortified.org/genera/independent-funding/

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC3367244/

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7061863/

https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.1600850

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC6918800/

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10814746/

https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.1602638

https://www.nature.com/articles/s44264-023-00009-7

Why are synthetics regularly banned if they are safe then? Is every farm high-tech, with million dollars tractors and big, flat fields? How about crops where pesticides have to be applied manually? How about communities near the fields, which breathe those products?[0]

Why are you trying to slide the discussion with GMOs, which aren't relevant since we talk about pesticides?

Saying that "organic has 2% of the world crop" is not true : certified organic crops, yes. Most of the earth's biomass grows without synthetic pesticides, and many farms in the world have the same practices without the labels.

In general, organic farming is a reference, of course that it doesn't have to be a religion. It is also a great source of scientific experimentation, especially for soil regeneration and biodiversity (which alas, I know, isn't profitable for Monsanto&co... yet!)

Using less pesticides in general is something that is proven better[1], and doesn't necessarily reduces yields[2]. Organic farming is part of the global effort for the reduction in pesticide usage, and doesn't have to be hegemonic. Having "organic farming only" areas are for instance great to create havens for biodiversity, while agricorps are allowed to run wild elsewhere.

Overall it's great for consumer choice, and reducing to the maximum pesticides intake for children should be a goal, given their sensitivity to endocrine disruptors.

[0] https://oem.bmj.com/content/68/9/694.short

[1] https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s42452-019-1485-1

[2] https://www.nature.com/articles/nplants20178

> There are still organic ones available, which are less dangerous.

"Organic" as in certified 'Organic' or as in the class of molecules?

If the former then I'd love to see the classification requirements that make a qualifying chemical safer all the ones that aren't.

If the later, that's blatantly untrue

"Organic" as in "allowed in what is commonly called 'organic farming'". You can find the rather short list here: https://www.agdaily.com/technology/the-list-of-pesticides-ap...

Note that other countries may have different legislations. You are also free to eat DDT to prove that organic farming is not really safer.

Organic is a label which means something specific. Compliance with the definition is controlled by law, however imperfectly. It is not just greenwashing.
You are both correct. Organic means something specific. However what it means is not what most people think it means. People want healthy and good for the earth - that is not what organic gives you. Sometimes it does, but sometimes conventional ag (with all those scary chemicals) is better.
Yes, I get this argument. But everybody intuitively understands the basic proposition of organic. Namely: "We have not added anything to your food for which you don't have many thousands of years of evolutionary preparation." That is not pseudoscience, it's rational circumspection. Or, as the European Commission calls it, the "precautionary principle". Speaking for myself, I find it convincing.
Problem is we have modern science which in same cases has proven that the modern chemicals are less harmful. Remember lead was considered normal for many thousands of years
Yes, but we understand modern science as it pertains to both... which is why lead is controlled for both organic and non-organic farming.

Honestly curious, which of these is more harmful than the non-organic alternatives?

https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-7/subtitle-B/chapter-I/su...

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Modern science can only "prove" that something is not harmful on a timescale of a year or perhaps a decade, not a generation or more. If the precautionary principle had been applied in Roman times, lead would not have been considered safe. Nor asbestos, nor thalidomide, nor microplastics, nor a bunch of synthetic molecules - "proven safe" - that are routinely added to non-organic food in order to improve its yield or its cosmetic aspect or whatever. That was my point.
That is still better than organic, which doesn't even ask what science can show about chemicals. The obvious example is organic doesn't have GMOs, even though GMOs are the only foods we even try and prove safe. Everything else, what we just assumed, but nobody has ever actually checked.
The argument we are having here is essentially a classic of philosophy: empiricism versus rationalism. You keep arguing for the former; I am arguing for the latter. It is true that molecule X may not present an observable danger to health; it is also true that it may be reasonable to believe it does present one (most obviously because we do not have thousands of generations of evolutionary adaptation to it, as is the case with both lead and GMOs).

This dichotomy underpins a difference in regulation between the USA and Europe. As mentioned already, the EU Commission applies the "precautionary principle" in its legal regime for food and chemicals. This is not "unscientific". Empiricism has been more popular in the Anglophone world, but rationalism was one of the pillars of the scientific Enlightenment.

https://eur-lex.europa.eu/EN/legal-content/glossary/precauti...

Are you sure the basic proposition of organic isn't "we can get people to pay more if we put on this label".
Speaking for myself, yes, I am sure. See previous comments for explanation.
True. My tea merchant sells two varieties of the same tea. The organic and the regular. I asked what the difference was, and they said the tea comes from the same village, and that the organic one was lower quality, so they invested in EU stamps to get a higher price, while the higher quality one did not feel the need. No difference essentially, except that the organic was priced higher.

So I always make a point to buy the inorganic one (pun intended!).

Within the EU, it does. There's a whole regulation for it: EU 2018/848.
At least in Germany we have “Bio” which is a organic label that is controlled at least somewhat.
But it is controlled for the wrong criterias. "Natural" doesn't mean healthy or good for the environment. It is only greenwashing and "appeal to nature" fallacy
Strong claims require strong evidence, not just throwing random fashionable words others are using. Your claims are very strong.
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People are downvoting you, but you’re right: https://news.immunologic.org/p/organic-foods-are-not-healthi...

Organic is marketing. Organic produce is more profitable.

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Just buy from places where these laws are in effect instead of imports from other countries where they legally use these pesticides.
You can but that makes grocery shopping more cumbersome so it's valid to ask why you have to put in that effort.
Yes and no!

In the UK, tea means tea bags and that normally means tea bags made of a plastic/paper mix. If I remember, the bag material is made and then they heat it up to get the plastic out, revealing the holes, needed for the bag.

Of late there has been criticism of microplastics in tea bags, and the posh organic bags have fared quite badly. Fancy sachets are not necessarily it.

As for chemicals, not one farmer spends any money than what is the bare minimum, no matter what they do. They might have to put all kinds of toxic chemicals on crops but they are not going to waste money over-doing it, because they are tight with the money, at all times, under all circumstances.

So the question has to be asked, is it worth worrying about the worrying levels of chemicals in tea when there are worrying levels of microplastics that the body really cannot get rid of with some liver-fu?

But, are there more toxins? The working class British way to have tea is with milk and two sugars. The milk is designed for baby cows, not grown men, they should be 'weaned off' because there are all kinds of things in dairy that might not be toxins, but could be considered to be. For example the cholesterol and saturated fat. Next the sugar, which is fine in moderation, so long as you don't care for your teeth, and, when combined with saturated fat, can contribute to type two diabetes.

Clearly opinions vary regarding the health aspects of milk and sugar in tea, my grandmother almost made it to a century, consuming plenty. However, you can reduce the toxic load from drinking tea by getting rid of the microplastics by using plant-based teabags (even LIDL have them), not having milk and sugar in the tea and, only then, getting concerned about buying organic.

Organic does not mean no nasty chemicals, it means no synthetic nasty chemicals. However, it is still a good nice-to-have, but, realistically, if you want to cut your exposure to toxins, there are these other huge areas that are under our control, but those things are going to be controversial lifestyle choices. Just not using cars 'could' reduce your toxic load far more than any organic teabag.

Oh no, I drank 1 ml of saturated fat. Is it even still all bad for you? I thought I heard some detail about that recently ...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saturated_fat

> A 2024 meta-analysis found that odd-chain and longer-chain saturated fatty acids were negatively associated with the risk of cardiovascular disease, including stroke.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odd-chain_fatty_acid

>OCFAs are found particularly in ruminant fat and milk (e.g. pentadecylic acid).

(I don't know if that means most of the saturated fatty acids in milk, it's full of different varieties.)

Many a health or ethics rabbit hole can be bypassed with simple abstention. However, this is not good for 'content creators'. They need the controversy and rage bait for engagement.

With saturated fat the health authorities that have science but industry lobbying to content with, have told us to avoid the stuff because it clogs the arteries and invariably comes with cholesterol because animals. Arguably Ebola and AIDS are worse than a bit of saturated fat, however, it is a clear message, up there with 'smoking is bad'. Yet a vocal minority will spin this yarn about how wonderful saturated fat is. They are for real and tell the gym-going public all kinds of nonsense.

Yet a diet from before farmers started using copious amounts of synthetic chemicals placed saturated fat as very hard to get. There is no fat on wild animals, only on fattened up farm animals (and humans).

In these former times, meat of any kind was hard to come by. Chicken was saved up for, paying in installments for that special birthday treat. Meat such as rabbit was far more prevalent, the chicken was there for the eggs, not to be eaten as a snack in a lunchtime sandwich.

Hence, scale back all the modern day junk to the idealised peasant diet and there is no need to know anything about any modern day diet or nutrition talking points.

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I am more worried about heavy metals and pesticide in tea than the micro plastics in the teabag. There is more tea than bag after all. Furthermore the ground tea found in teabags potentially release more pesticides/heavy metals compared to loose tea leaves you brew in a teapot.
Because of the thermal shock, these bags release billions of plastic particles, that you immediately consume and let diffuse into your organs. It may be one of the worst forms of exposure to microplastics overall.